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 Topic: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)

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  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #210 - June 16, 2010, 10:13 AM
    Quote
    Then why does it happen?

     

    It's remnants of an obsolete (Islamic) system, when life was very harsh and men and women traveling were subject to numerous dangers.

    Quote
    And do you think they should continue doing it?


    No. I thought it was obvious given my past posts.

    And by the way, regarding the Saudi nationality issue, even chilren to Saudi *men* are NOT given the Saudi nationality if their mothers are NOT Saudi!

    Yes, a system which was installed about 10 years ago in Saudi Arabia requires that both the father AND the mother be Saudis for their children to get the Saudi nationality (athough, there are exceptions, granted by the interior ministry, if you know someone there).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #211 - June 16, 2010, 10:38 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 10:13 AM
    Yes, a system which was installed about 10 years ago in Saudi Arabia requires that both the father AND the mother be Saudis for their children to get the Saudi nationality (athough, there are exceptions, granted by the interior ministry, if you know someone there).

    A more subtle way of carrying out racism, in any case it keeps those Saudi blood lines strong Afro  - but I guess its fair enough, the Prophet did think Arabs were "special"

    Reminds me of the Indian caste system, where Brahmans dont intermarry otherwise they lose the benefits of this all-superior caste.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #212 - June 16, 2010, 10:48 AM
    Quote
    A more subtle way of carrying out racism, in any case it keeps those Saudi blood lines strong   - but I guess its fair enough, the Prophet did think Arabs were "special"

     

    You couldn't be more wrong! The reason this injustice was forced upon men (either marrying Saudi women or their children will be treated as foreigners) is that Saudi men were marrying foreign women in large numbers, leaving Saudi women without husbands. So here's an example of Saudi women causing Saudi men injustice.

    Oh, and btw, could you show me the Hadith (I know it's not in the Quran) that says Arabs were special? The only Hadith I remember, that is related to this, says that Arabs are no better than non-Arabs, and fearing God is what makes someone better than others.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #213 - June 16, 2010, 11:20 AM
    Surprised you didnt know this.  Why do you think Allah gave the message in Arabic (the Quran )to the Arabs and nobody else?

    Here's the hadith from my blog that I was referring to ..

    Quote
    Tabari IX:69 - "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah's Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us."

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  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #214 - June 16, 2010, 11:32 AM
    Quote
    Surprised you didnt know this.  Why do you think Allah gave the message in Arabic (the Quran )to the Arabs and nobody else?


    That's your reading of it. The only nation that was mentioned in the Quran as having been preferred to all other nations was ISRAEL. No such verses exist in the Quran regarding Arabs.

    As for Tabari, for the thousand-th time, Tabari's history book is NOT even a religious book. The vast majority of his little stories didn't even meet prophet Bukhari, prophet Muslim, and the rest of the Sunni prophets' standards.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #215 - June 16, 2010, 11:36 AM
    Yeah nobody is buying that Debunker so Tabari is here to stay. Not only in CEMB but in the Ummah as well.
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #216 - June 16, 2010, 11:38 AM
    Hey hang on a second, if Mohamed was the Seal of the Prophets how can Debunker refer to Bukhari and Muslim as prophets?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #217 - June 16, 2010, 11:40 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 11:32 AM
    That's your reading of it. The only nation that was mentioned in the Quran as having been preferred to all other nations was ISRAEL. No such verses exist in the Quran regarding Arabs.

    So why was the Quran revealed to the Arabs in their language, and nobody else's?
    Quote
    As for Tabari, for the thousand time, Tabari's history book is NOT even a religious book. The vast majority of his little stories didn't even meet prophet Bukhari, prophet Muslim, and the rest of the Sunni prohets' standards.

    Its irrelevent that you dont accept it.  

    Until the mullahs stop quoting the bits they want from it, then it will remain part of Islamic literature and part of Islamic influence, and part of what Islam is today.  

    In any case from my objective reading of the Quran and the hadith, with or without this clear cut hadith, I stil see Mo as a supremacist & a snob.  

    In fact the only people that he suffered a complex from were the Israeli Jews, the same complex that afflicts millions of Muslims today.
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  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #218 - June 16, 2010, 11:41 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 16, 2010, 11:38 AM
    Hey hang on a second, if Mohamed was the Seal of the Prophets how can Debunker refer to Bukhari and Muslim as prophets?

    I think he was taking the piss  Wink
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  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #219 - June 16, 2010, 11:42 AM
    That would explain it.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #220 - June 16, 2010, 11:54 AM
    @ BD

    Quote
    Yeah nobody is buying that Debunker so Tabari is here to stay. Not only in CEMB but in the Ummah as well.

     

    What do you mean? Tanari's book is NOT one of the Hadith books accepted by Sunnis (or Shia for that matter).

    @ Islame

    Quote
    So why was the Quran revealed to the Arabs in their language, and nobody else's?


    do I even need to answer that? Because Arabs didn't speak Greek or Persian or Coptic or any other language.

    Quote
    Its irrelevent that you dont accept it. 

     

    True.

    Quote
    Until the mullahs stop quoting the bits they want from it, then it will remain part of Islamic literature and part of Islamic influence, and part of what Islam is today. 

     

    It IS part of the Islamic literature but it is NOT a religious book, not even to Sunnis!

    Quote
    In any case from my objective reading of the Quran and the hadith, with or without this clear cut hadith, I stil see Mo as a supremacist & a snob. 

     

    Of course you do.

    Quote
    In fact the only people that he suffered a complex from were the Israeli Jews, the same complex that afflicts millions of Muslims today.


    Well, I'll be honest, reading the Quran I always felt jealous of the Israelites! I always thought why did God so explicitly say that He preferred them to the rest of the nations? But then I knew what was the true message behind the story of Israel in the Quran. It was the story of human nature, and Israel was only an example.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #221 - June 16, 2010, 11:56 AM
    It wasn't because Jews are also the chosen people in the Bible?
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #222 - June 16, 2010, 11:58 AM
    Quote
    It wasn't because Jews are also the chosen people in the Bible?

     

    of course that's how you would see it: Muhammed copying the Bible...

    but really, he didn't need to copy that bit.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #223 - June 16, 2010, 12:01 PM
    No I mentioned that because Allah said he revelead the Bible and the Torah before, that's where they are mentioned so it would make sense to mention them in the Quran.
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #224 - June 16, 2010, 12:06 PM
    But the Quran never shied away from contradicting almost every story in the Bible! So why not change this one too?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #225 - June 16, 2010, 12:06 PM
    Allah knows best.
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #226 - June 16, 2010, 01:04 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 11:54 AM
    do I even need to answer that? Because Arabs didn't speak Greek or Persian or Coptic or any other language.
     

    Not if you are going to interpret the question it true DB style, i.e. the version that you want to reply to and not the one that was intended.

    Let me rephrase the question and keep it simple - why was the Quran revealed to the Arabs?
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  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #227 - June 16, 2010, 01:09 PM
    ...and not for example, to a more civilised, progressed region of the globe such as China - at least there they could read. Arabia and the middle east in general was in dire circumstances.


    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #228 - June 16, 2010, 02:27 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 16, 2010, 01:04 PM
    Not if you are going to interpret the question it true DB style, i.e. the version that you want to reply to and not the one that was intended.

    Let me rephrase the question and keep it simple - why was the Quran revealed to the Arabs?


    Ooops, sorry. I was assuming too much. Ok, here's the answer:

    Because Arabs never had a prophet before Muhammed (those who did receive revelations were utterly destroyed, like Thamud, Aad, etc).

    28:46-47
    And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful.
    And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, then they should say: Our Lord! why didst Thou not send to us a messenger so that we should have followed Thy communications and been of the believers !

    32:3
    Or do they say: He has forged it? Nay! it is the truth from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you, that they may follow the right direction.

    34:44
    And We have not given them any books which they read, nor did We send to them before you a warner.

    While every nation received a prophet at some point in time.

    35:24
    Surely We have sent you with the truth as a bearer of good news and a warner; and there is not a people but a warner has gone among them.

    So the Arabs were the only nation which didn't receive a prophet before Muhammed and their prophet came with a message to them first and to the rest of humanity as well (this bit is for AbuYunus, btw).

    25:1
    Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon His servant that he may be a warner to the nations;

    34:28
    And We have not sent you but to all the men as a bearer of good news and as a warner, but most men do not know.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #229 - June 16, 2010, 02:30 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on June 16, 2010, 01:09 PM
    ...and not for example, to a more civilised, progressed region of the globe such as China - at least there they could read. Arabia and the middle east in general was in dire circumstances.


    See above.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #230 - June 16, 2010, 02:31 PM
    Maybe the Chinese were too clever to believe peoples brainspeak?
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #231 - June 16, 2010, 03:10 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 02:27 PM
    While every nation received a prophet at some point in time.

    Do you really believe France, USA, Australia, Budapest, Iceland had a messenger? 

    Why did the Arabs receive the most recent revelation? 

    And why did no-one else get a book in their language so they could understand these teachings in their own tongue..
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  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #232 - June 16, 2010, 03:36 PM
    Quote
    Do you really believe France, USA, Australia, Budapest, Iceland had a messenger?  

     

    I'm very bad in history, but I don't think there was a USA or a Budapest or a France back then, unless you're referring to geography.

    Anyway, that's the Quranic claim, it's just another claim you can disbelieve in, just like the claim there's a Creator God.

    Quote
    Why did the Arabs receive the most recent revelation?  

     

    The Quranic claim is that they were the only people who didn't receive a messenger, so they were the last people to receive the (final) message from God.

    Quote
    And why did no-one else get a book in their language so they could understand these teachings in their own tongue..


    Are you you saying why didn't God send the Quran in other languages? or are you saying why other nations didn't receive a messenger? I already answered that I believe all nations (but Arabs) received a messenger at some point in time... Arabs only happened to be the last people to receive the message.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #233 - June 16, 2010, 03:40 PM
    He doesn't "disbelieve" in it, we all just know its not true. Monotheism is not a universal concept, its a fairly recent one and an unnatural one at that.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #234 - June 16, 2010, 03:46 PM
    Quote
    He doesn't "disbelieve" in it, we all just know its not true. Monotheism is not a universal concept, its a fairly recent one and an unnatural one at that.


    I know but I don't understand what's the point of his questions if he already knows all of it is not true anyway? So I had to assume he was asking questions based on Quranic claims.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #235 - June 16, 2010, 03:53 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 03:36 PM
    Anyway, that's the Quranic claim, it's just another claim you can disbelieve in, just like the claim there's a Creator God.

    Well the quranic claim for a creator God is not just that but also one that supposedly does not need to be supported by evidence.  This is because the actual claim being made is that a creator God exists which does not show any evidence of its existence.  To which you can either answer yes or no.

    Now the claim you make, and Quran makes here, is that others also received a similar message.  In fact every country in the world received it.  So where's the evidence?  Where are the scriptures?  Why were Arabs entrusted to receive the final & most up-to-date message of the Quran?
     
    Quote
    Are you you saying why didn't God send the Quran in other languages?

    Yes, but only because I believe the fact it was only sent to a small group of people at the time further strengthens the case that Islam was the work of one man that spread. 

    If it was divinical I would expected everyone to have received an undeniable message at the same time in a clear language that all could understand. 
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  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #236 - June 16, 2010, 04:19 PM
    A related question I have is why have messengers at all, why aren't all men not equally inspired by God? Why not give everyone this message that is supposedly applicable to all peoples and for all times, then God can judge people on how they follow it, in the knowledge that everyone received the same, and perfect, message. That it is a handful of men who claim to be divinely inspired, all of them having different 'messages', well it almost makes you think they made it up. Perish the thought eh?
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #237 - June 16, 2010, 04:20 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 16, 2010, 04:19 PM
    A related question I have is why have messengers at all, why aren't all men not equally inspired by God? Why not give everyone this message that is supposedly applicable to all peoples and for all times, then God can judge people on how they follow it, in the knowledge that everyone received the same, and perfect, message. That it is a handful of men who claim to be divinely inspired, all of them having different 'messages', well it almost makes you think they made it up. Perish the thought eh?


    Because Allah likes fuckin with peoples heads.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #238 - June 16, 2010, 10:49 PM
    The Aboriginies in Australia never had a messanger, the Inuits of the artic regions had no messanger theres at least 50 other cultures that never had messangers.

    I think that god envy is what created allah, the there main religions islam, christian and jewish all come from roughly the same place, the jews came frist, then the christians said "we have a better one" then islam said we have an even better one.

    These religions were born in a time when people were use to not requiring evidence yet neither of the three celebrate their gods alegedly greatest common skill "hiding".
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: I am a FRESH ex Muslim ;)
     Reply #239 - June 16, 2010, 11:56 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 08:22 AM
    Too bad, because then your children would be carrying her father's name rather than her mother's, which is also her grandfather's name rather than her grandmother's, and so on and so on.

    So what?


    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 08:22 AM
    Another off-topic question: Would you say that a wife carrying her husband's last name is misogyny?

    No but it's a manifestation of patriarchy.


    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 08:22 AM
    Why don't you ask yourself? She could go to England or Dubai and live there, why doesn't she do it? And yes, Economics are a big factor in this. Saudi men are also opressed by their government, but we don't see an exodus out of Saudi Arabia (from either sexes) precisely because the opression isn't bad enough as to prefer actually working hard to earn your money.

    Her dream was to live in France as she speaks the language. And she was working toward it.
    Oppression will not be offset by wealth. Women still practically "belong" to men. 


    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 08:22 AM
    You're talking as if I had denied any opression! I repeat: yes, entrusting a woman's freedom to her family is an opression. Do you want me to say that again?

    Apologies for misreading your posts then.


    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 08:22 AM
    Where did I deny that? and where did I say it was not an opression?

    Same as above.


    Quote from: debunker on June 16, 2010, 08:22 AM
    That was a *specific* response to abdalwali when he commented about Saudi tourists in Malaysia. I was telling him that those Saudis *in Malaysia* are highly likely the kind whose women like to cover up head to toe and I gave examples of Saudi girls in Switzerland barely covering up their bodies.

    OK. But that sure was a fucked-up to articulate it.

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