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Theme Changer

 Topic: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan

 (Read 10173 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     OP - April 17, 2010, 10:33 PM

    Here is a great video; rips the liberal west a good one:

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcz9jy_ywelcomingy-tariq-ramadan-the-islam_news

    I'd love to hear what others think. There needs to be more Muslims like this Smiley

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #1 - April 18, 2010, 06:00 AM

    That indeed is a great video dear  kaiwai.,Thank you for the link of Tarek Fatah., He is a great guy .. Please watch these videos

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i47KNrO7UE -1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE2IPm6bneU-2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TknggKuNio-3

    I know he is right with reference to his Islam., but the question is did he really understood Islam of  Prophet times? Did he really understand Quran and what it is there in that book???

    Also please read these links

    http://scaramouchee.blogspot.com/2010/03/tarek-fatah-calls-wafa-sultan.html
    http://www.ruthfullyyours.com/2010/03/14/ali-sina-the-homage-to-wafa-sultan-and-rebuttal-of-tarq-fatah/

    And tell me whether Tarek Fatah was right or wrong., or did we misunderstood his words? Or did he not understand Wafa Sultan??

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #2 - April 18, 2010, 06:22 AM

    Here is a great video; rips the liberal west a good one:

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcz9jy_ywelcomingy-tariq-ramadan-the-islam_news

    I'd love to hear what others think. There needs to be more Muslims like this Smiley


    A lot of people have told me to look at the things Tarek Fateh says and I have to admit this is the first time I have heard him talk - and frankly I'm disappointed.

    I don't like the way he portrays the problem as racial problem: "Arab Islam" - it's these Arabs who are trying impose their intolerant Arab Islam on us nice peaceful Indian and Pakistani Muslims... as if these versions of Islam are completely benign forms of Islam and bear no relation to the nasty "Arab Islam".

    It's just another way of blaming someone else and avoiding the issue that Islam itself is the problem.

    And I don't like the way he talks and the words he uses: Termites, Snakes, Parasites etc...

    I'm not impressed by him at all.
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #3 - April 18, 2010, 06:27 AM

    Hassan you are a very cruel guy. You should be banned along with billy insulting yeezevee., I am going to report to allat(??) the mod??.

    some times You are NOT Hassan I used to know you act  like Hussan,,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #4 - April 18, 2010, 06:31 AM



    Yeah, Deobandi Islam is similar to Wahabism and is virile in Pakistan and amongst Muslims elsewhere in the subcontinent (although its a great irony that Deoband the town that Deobandi Islam emanates from is in Hindu majority India - ouch!), so blaming it solely on 'the Arabs' is not being wholly honest.

    Having said that, Tariq Ramadan is a dawah-ganda peddler, and is not to be taken at face value. There are better decimations of that Islamist with a soft voice out there. Ramadan should be confronted and refuted, he's had too easy a ride in the UK by the Guardian-Multiculturalism circuit.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #5 - April 18, 2010, 06:32 AM

    Hassan you are a very cruel guy. You should be banned along with billy insulting yeezevee., I am going to report to allat(??) the mod??.

    some times You are NOT Hassan I used to know you act  like Hussan,,


     Roll Eyes

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #6 - April 18, 2010, 06:34 AM

    Quote
    Tariq Ramadan is a dawah-ganda peddler

    Nope he is NOT dawah-ganda peddler,  he is just dawah-Gadha 

    and I don't like guys with rolling eyes Roll Eyes.,  ban Billy...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #7 - April 18, 2010, 06:42 AM


    Are you taking any pills for a condition, dear yeezeevee  Huh?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #8 - April 18, 2010, 06:44 AM

    Hassan you are a very cruel guy. You should be banned along with billy insulting yeezevee., I am going to report to allat(??) the mod??.

    some times You are NOT Hassan I used to know you act  like Hussan,,


    Was that a joke, Yeeze? If not what is the problem? Was it my opinion on Tarek Fateh?

    I'm afraid I still often find the things you say leave me scratching my head. Sometimes your posts are really good and you appear to be very perceptive and insightful - and other times you seem to have your wires crossed and have entirely missed the point - other times I just don't have a clue what you are saying.  Huh?
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #9 - April 18, 2010, 06:46 AM

    Nope he is NOT dawah-ganda peddler,  he is just dawah-Gadha

    We should totally PS Tariq Ramadan's face onto a donkey.  Cheesy

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #10 - April 18, 2010, 06:51 AM

    That indeed is a great video dear  kaiwai.,Thank you for the link of Tarek Fatah., He is a great guy .. Please watch these videos

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i47KNrO7UE -1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE2IPm6bneU-2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TknggKuNio-3

    I know he is right with reference to his Islam., but the question is did he really understood Islam of  Prophet times? Did he really understand Quran and what it is there in that book???

    Also please read these links

    http://scaramouchee.blogspot.com/2010/03/tarek-fatah-calls-wafa-sultan.html
    http://www.ruthfullyyours.com/2010/03/14/ali-sina-the-homage-to-wafa-sultan-and-rebuttal-of-tarq-fatah/

    And tell me whether Tarek Fatah was right or wrong., or did we misunderstood his words? Or did he not understand Wafa Sultan??


    Is anyone following the 'authentic Islam of Muhammad's time'? When you consider how the narrations were collected, the influence of outside oral stories that were Islamacised, various groups jockeying for power and narrations created to back up their claim to legitimacy, and the question as to how much tradition should impact on the understanding of the Qur'an. I find it funny that it seems there are those here who are hell bent on constructing an Islam simply to legitimise their own reason for leaving Islam - by someone saying that their understanding isn't necessarily so they are scared that it undermines one of the pillars which they base their decision to leave Islam on. It is almost as though the Salafi and ex-Muslims are on the same page, each legitimising their positions from the same same understanding of Islam.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #11 - April 18, 2010, 06:54 AM

    Common guys., yes it was a joke...  Also the response of Hassan to Tarek Fateh and may be bit of salt ..lol..

    But dear Hassan and Billy it appears many members here do not to realize, how hurtful you guys are to those who follow Islam as their faith.,  Some times CEMB is more cruel  than ffi for those who follow Islam as their faith.

    Hasan.,  Tarek Fateh  is not talking about every Arab., he was talking about those who behave like Osama., or Tariq Ramadan or his Grand father or all the way to Caliph type of  Muslim.,  The only thing Tarek  protecting is Quran and Prophet Muhammad

    With  best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #12 - April 18, 2010, 07:00 AM

    yeezeevee, I like you, even though you are strange sometimes  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #13 - April 18, 2010, 07:30 AM

    Common guys., yes it was a joke...  Also the response of Hassan to Tarek Fateh and may be bit of salt ..lol..

    But dear Hassan and Billy it appears many members here do not to realize, how hurtful you guys are to those who follow Islam as their faith.,  Some times CEMB is more cruel  than ffi for those who follow Islam as their faith.

    Hasan.,  Tarek Fateh  is not talking about every Arab., he was talking about those who behave like Osama., or Tariq Ramadan or his Grand father or all the way to Caliph type of  Muslim.,  The only thing Tarek  protecting is Quran and Prophet Muhammad

    With  best wishes
    yeezevee


    Yep, OK Smiley
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #14 - April 18, 2010, 08:25 AM

    Is anyone following the 'authentic Islam of Muhammad's time'? When you consider how the narrations were collected, the influence of outside oral stories that were Islamacised, various groups jockeying for power and narrations created to back up their claim to legitimacy, and the question as to how much tradition should impact on the understanding of the Qur'an. I find it funny that it seems there are those here who are hell bent on constructing an Islam simply to legitimise their own reason for leaving Islam - by someone saying that their understanding isn't necessarily so they are scared that it undermines one of the pillars which they base their decision to leave Islam on. It is almost as though the Salafi and ex-Muslims are on the same page, each legitimising their positions from the same same understanding of Islam.

    I see what you're saying. Attempts to clarify the position of orthodox Islam are useful because Muslims are generally very quick to employ the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy in their apologetics. Having a better understanding of what most Muslims would consider True Islam(tm) helps when debating them or understanding their positions.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #15 - April 18, 2010, 08:38 AM

    I see what you're saying. Attempts to clarify the position of orthodox Islam are useful because Muslims are generally very quick to employ the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy in their apologetics. Having a better understanding of what most Muslims would consider True Islam(tm) helps when debating them or understanding their positions.


    I tend to come from this point of view; that Islam is pluralistic, that there are a plurality of interpretations but with that plurality comes some bed rock beliefs, what are those bed rock beliefs? why is it that some people project the current situation into the Qur'anic narrative? legitimate attempt to find meaning by drawing parallels or individuals trying to use Islam to legitimise otherwise secular aims with Islam being little more than a slogan and Muslim being little more than an identity akin to tribal affiliation?

    I tend to find that there are many Muslims who are well intentioned (who call themselves moderate/liberal/progressive) but when it comes to entering into a discourse they're confused as to how to approach a given matter hence you'll see them scoot away. I don't blame then given these are weighty issues but at the same time I don't think belittling them as some atheists do is actually going to help the situation either.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #16 - April 18, 2010, 08:56 AM

    I tend to come from this point of view; that Islam is pluralistic, that there are a plurality of interpretations but with that plurality comes some bed rock beliefs, what are those bed rock beliefs? why is it that some people project the current situation into the Qur'anic narrative? legitimate attempt to find meaning by drawing parallels or individuals trying to use Islam to legitimise otherwise secular aims with Islam being little more than a slogan and Muslim being little more than an identity akin to tribal affiliation?

    I tend to find that there are many Muslims who are well intentioned (who call themselves moderate/liberal/progressive) but when it comes to entering into a discourse they're confused as to how to approach a given matter hence you'll see them scoot away. I don't blame then given these are weighty issues but at the same time I don't think belittling them as some atheists do is actually going to help the situation either.

    I agree with you that secular muslims tend to get bashed from all angles. FWIW, my position is that I couldn't care less whether people professing to be Muslim think Allah is some guy in a clown suit, as long as they relinquish the violent socio-political ideology we all associate with Islam nowadays. I don't see the point in bashing Muslims generally. Then again, look at it from this perspective: The ex-muslim community is small and severely suppressed. I don't see why they shouldn't have their own peanut gallery to blow off steam. Most ex-Muslims still have Muslim family, friends and furthermore can relate back to their own previous experiences of being Muslim, so I doubt many of them are totally unsympathetic to Muslims as a rule.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #17 - April 18, 2010, 09:22 AM

    I agree with you that secular muslims tend to get bashed from all angles. FWIW, my position is that I couldn't care less whether people professing to be Muslim think Allah is some guy in a clown suit, as long as they relinquish the violent socio-political ideology we all associate with Islam nowadays. I don't see the point in bashing Muslims generally. Then again, look at it from this perspective: The ex-muslim community is small and severely suppressed. I don't see why they shouldn't have their own peanut gallery to blow off steam. Most ex-Muslims still have Muslim family, friends and furthermore can relate back to their own previous experiences of being Muslim, so I doubt many of them are totally unsympathetic to Muslims as a rule.


    What I tend to find are many people here who complain about Islam tend to be complaining about their families culture but are unwilling to admit that it is the culture that is the cause. It is like hearing a person talking about their horrible health whilst puffing on their cigarette - instead of blaming the obvious (the cigarets being smoked) the person blames the over head wires or the pollution in the air caused by a factory 200kms away.

    A primitive culture with an overlay of a religion and you have those cultural seeds sprouting through the religious layer as being 'part of Islam'. Hence I stated if you took away Islam the same primitive culture would remain and sprout through the new layer you place over the top - be it nationalism, secularism or some other ism you can take your pick from. Until you address the underlying culture all the rejection of Islam won't make a lick of difference; if I waved a magic wond tomorrow and Islam was suddenly lifted off Pakistan the same behaviour would remain.

    This isn't just isolated to Islam, just look at Christianity in third world countries; Lord Resistance Army led by a person who believes he speaks directly to God, In the Philippines where actual crucifixions occur (then the people are rushed off to hospital afterwards), Uganda and the anti-gay law with the support of Christian churches in the southern states (aka the most uneducated, backwards part of America) etc. So these things occur everywhere and hardly something caused by the religion itself but a combination of culture finding elements of religion to legitimate cultural norms.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #18 - April 18, 2010, 10:02 AM

    What I tend to find are many people here who complain about Islam tend to be complaining about their families culture but are unwilling to admit that it is the culture that is the cause. It is like hearing a person talking about their horrible health whilst puffing on their cigarette - instead of blaming the obvious (the cigarets being smoked) the person blames the over head wires or the pollution in the air caused by a factory 200kms away.

    A primitive culture with an overlay of a religion and you have those cultural seeds sprouting through the religious layer as being 'part of Islam'. Hence I stated if you took away Islam the same primitive culture would remain and sprout through the new layer you place over the top - be it nationalism, secularism or some other ism you can take your pick from. Until you address the underlying culture all the rejection of Islam won't make a lick of difference; if I waved a magic wond tomorrow and Islam was suddenly lifted off Pakistan the same behaviour would remain.

    This isn't just isolated to Islam, just look at Christianity in third world countries; Lord Resistance Army led by a person who believes he speaks directly to God, In the Philippines where actual crucifixions occur (then the people are rushed off to hospital afterwards), Uganda and the anti-gay law with the support of Christian churches in the southern states (aka the most uneducated, backwards part of America) etc. So these things occur everywhere and hardly something caused by the religion itself but a combination of culture finding elements of religion to legitimate cultural norms.

    The problem is that they're impossibly intertwined. Trying to make a distinction between Islam as a religious ideology and certain aspects of Arabic culture can be difficult at times. I see your point that traits of underlying cultures shouldn't necessarily be treated as Islamic. But there is an issue of cultural perspective to take into account. If you weren't circling at 30,000ft looking down at those "primitive cultures", but instead were brought up within one of those cultures, perhaps you would view the way Islam integrates into your life differently. For example, the patriarchal nature of Islam formalises men's roles within those cultures, giving them unchallengable power and providing cover against even the most heinous crimes. Also, when taking into account some of the horrible things from these cultures, you have to weigh them against some of the more barbaric practices which are acceptable within Islam. Perhaps if your religion proscribed stoning women to death, you wouldn't balk at murdering babies. Islam can present an impenetrable barrier to progress within some societies because of the immutable value (or lack thereof) it places on human life and humanity in general. It's easy for a Muslim to say, "oh, but that's not Islamic", without considering the complexity of human culture and the ways in which religion distorts its development or hinders its progress.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #19 - April 18, 2010, 10:22 AM

     kaiwai counter questions me
    Quote
    Is anyone following the 'authentic Islam of Muhammad's time'?

     at  http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9879.msg253221#msg253221

    Dear  kaiwai., I am asking you the questions., but what you are doing is counter questioning  without answering me., That is unfair game., I call upon the moderators of the forum to take a note of this and ..and ban..ban..ban..  kaiwai., You know I always fought in FFI for that reason.

    Anyways give me answers for the questions at that link dear  kaiwai ., As far as "anyone following the 'authentic Islam of Muhammad's time'?"., First of all we have to found what that Islam was and where do we find it or read it??

    with best regards
    yeezevee


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #20 - April 18, 2010, 10:30 AM

    The problem is that they're impossibly intertwined. Trying to make a distinction between Islam as a religious ideology and certain aspects of Arabic culture can be difficult at times. I see your point that traits of underlying cultures shouldn't necessarily be treated as Islamic. But there is an issue of cultural perspective to take into account. If you weren't circling at 30,000ft looking down at those "primitive cultures", but instead were brought up within one of those cultures, perhaps you would view the way Islam integrates into your life differently. For example, the patriarchal nature of Islam formalises men's roles within those cultures, giving them unchallengable power and providing cover against even the most heinous crimes. Also, when taking into account some of the horrible things from these cultures, you have to weigh them against some of the more barbaric practices which are acceptable within Islam. Perhaps if your religion proscribed stoning women to death, you wouldn't balk at murdering babies. Islam can present an impenetrable barrier to progress within some societies because of the immutable value (or lack thereof) it places on human life and humanity in general. It's easy for a Muslim to say, "oh, but that's not Islamic", without considering the complexity of human culture and the ways in which religion distorts its development or hinders its progress.


    But you're assuming that Islam was introduced as like a big slab onto that society rather than piece meal where local customs and Islam were harmonised so that you ended up with religion and culture being intertwined - religion being used to legitimise cultural and social norms. How much of even Islam is Araba and how much is religion? how much culture was bundled in with Islam with the move to the Asharite position that talked about the primacy of tradition that inevitably resulted in Arab cultural norms being elevated as norms for Islam and Muslims to follow - which one could argue Muhammad might never intended to have occurred in such a way.

    kaiwai counter questions me  at  http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9879.msg253221#msg253221

    Dear  kaiwai., I am asking you the questions., but what you are doing is counter questioning  without answering me., That is unfair game., I call upon the moderators of the forum to take a note of this and ..and ban..ban..ban..  kaiwai., You know I always fought in FFI for that reason.

    Anyways give me answers for the questions at that link dear  kaiwai ., As far as "anyone following the 'authentic Islam of Muhammad's time'?"., First of all we have to found what that Islam was and where do we find it or read it??


    I posed the question in response and I answered it in the paragraph stating that there is no 'authentic Islam of Muhammad's time' given the nature on how Islam has been constructed and the influences surrounding it.

    What is Islam? how about reading what I said in reply to freethinker.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #21 - April 18, 2010, 11:00 AM

    But you're assuming that Islam was introduced as like a big slab onto that society rather than piece meal where local customs and Islam were harmonised so that you ended up with religion and culture being intertwined - religion being used to legitimise cultural and social norms. How much of even Islam is Araba and how much is religion? how much culture was bundled in with Islam with the move to the Asharite position that talked about the primacy of tradition that inevitably resulted in Arab cultural norms being elevated as norms for Islam and Muslims to follow - which one could argue Muhammad might never intended to have occurred in such a way.

    I think we're in agreement on most points. However, you seem to place some sort of importance on what Islam was meant to be, as though any of us could know. Whatever Muhammad's original intentions were are irrelevant, imo. It's like talking about whether Jesus was a real person or not. I can only deal with what people's perceptions of religion are today. Trying to define Islam beyond the fundamentals seems a waste of effort. All you'll end up doing is getting bogged down in semantics and huge variations in interpretation, thereby doing much of the apologists work for them in offering ready-made exceptions to what Islam is or isn't in their view. For example, if you debate a Shi'a you'll find some arguments will need to be adjusted (lots of hadith goes out of the window, for example). If Muslims themselves can't agree on the details, why should I be overly worried about trying to perfect a definition of Islam? Outside of a purely ideological sphere of argument the distinctions begin to blur and are less important, imo. For example, a fascist could argue that anti-semitism isn't part of their definition of fascism. The fact that many fascists happen to be anti-semitic can be explained away through various disingenuous arguments. This of course ignores the mindset that fascism instills in its proponents and the behaviours it encourages. From this perspective, Islam is blameless for most of what goes on in the Muslim world, because it doesn't directly proscribe much of what goes on, or the implementation of its proscriptions have been skewed.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #22 - April 18, 2010, 11:39 AM

    A lot of people have told me to look at the things Tarek Fateh says and I have to admit this is the first time I have heard him talk - and frankly I'm disappointed.

    I don't like the way he portrays the problem as racial problem: "Arab Islam" - it's these Arabs who are trying impose their intolerant Arab Islam on us nice peaceful Indian and Pakistani Muslims... as if these versions of Islam are completely benign forms of Islam and bear no relation to the nasty "Arab Islam".

    It's just another way of blaming someone else and avoiding the issue that Islam itself is the problem.

    And I don't like the way he talks and the words he uses: Termites, Snakes, Parasites etc...

    I'm not impressed by him at all.

    Imo I don't think that he portrayed the issue as one of race. He was rather saying that the issue is one of ideology. "The supremacy of Arab Islam over the rest of the world" = as defined by Sayyid Qutb for example not Arab in the racial sense (at least that's how I saw it).
    Fact is that a lot of Arab Muslims do feel superior to the rest of Ummah and even more interestingly a lot of Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims (and others no doubt) feel inferior to Arab Muslims - I have witnessed this myself on several occasions.

    It's a fair point that he is avoiding the issue of Islam being a problem in itself. But we all know why he is doing that.
    And quite frankly some of the stuff regarding Islam he said was problematic to say the least. "Sharia has got nothing to do with Islam". Yeah right.

    On the whole he does come across as a bit angry and frustrated but I was impressed by the fact that a Muslim who happens to be a public figure would go against somebody like Tariq Ramadan and brutally criticize him in public. On top of that Tarek Fateh did raise some excellent points.


  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #23 - April 18, 2010, 09:42 PM

    Imo I don't think that he portrayed the issue as one of race. He was rather saying that the issue is one of ideology. "The supremacy of Arab Islam over the rest of the world" = as defined by Sayyid Qutb for example not Arab in the racial sense (at least that's how I saw it).

    Fact is that a lot of Arab Muslims do feel superior to the rest of Ummah and even more interestingly a lot of Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims (and others no doubt) feel inferior to Arab Muslims - I have witnessed this myself on several occasions.


    Reminds me of what Irshad Manji said when she was labelled 'not a real Muslim' because she isn't Arab thus has no right to think differently; an Arab supremacist ideology of the world revolving around Arabia and only Arabs having a say on what is and isn't Islam. I'm actually surprised how Iran has been pussy whipped to the degree it has by its religious leaders - you'd think they would have self respect in demanding religious leaders from their own stock.

    Quote
    It's a fair point that he is avoiding the issue of Islam being a problem in itself. But we all know why he is doing that.
    And quite frankly some of the stuff regarding Islam he said was problematic to say the least. "Sharia has got nothing to do with Islam". Yeah right.

    On the whole he does come across as a bit angry and frustrated but I was impressed by the fact that a Muslim who happens to be a public figure would go against somebody like Tariq Ramadan and brutally criticize him in public. On top of that Tarek Fateh did raise some excellent points.


    Considering that the formalisation of sharia didn't happen until 200-300 years after Muhammad's death, the question is how much of sharia is actually something that should be at the state level.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #24 - April 18, 2010, 10:45 PM

    I don't like the way he portrays the problem as racial problem: "Arab Islam" - it's these Arabs who are trying impose their intolerant Arab Islam on us nice peaceful Indian and Pakistani Muslims... as if these versions of Islam are completely benign forms of Islam and bear no relation to the nasty "Arab Islam".


    I'm sorry so to say but a lot of these Desi muslims usually blame extremism on Arab Muslims and they think they are the "real" muslims.   The truth of the matter is they are the ones who have this Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh culture, that's what it means when they say "Desi".  Historically, the Desi culture is very tolerant but as soon as Radical Islam comes in....this culture doesn't matter anymore just like in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh.  He was comparing Pakistani muslims to Indian Muslims and saying Indian Muslims are doing quite well compared to Pakistani Muslims and that's not quite true.  True there are a lot of Indian Muslims that are doing well (i.e. Bollywood, Politics) but overall they still dont really like India and dont care about anything unless it affects Islam or muslims.


    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #25 - April 20, 2010, 01:13 PM

    I think we're in agreement on most points. However, you seem to place some sort of importance on what Islam was meant to be, as though any of us could know. Whatever Muhammad's original intentions were are irrelevant, imo. It's like talking about whether Jesus was a real person or not. I can only deal with what people's perceptions of religion are today. Trying to define Islam beyond the fundamentals seems a waste of effort. All you'll end up doing is getting bogged down in semantics and huge variations in interpretation, thereby doing much of the apologists work for them in offering ready-made exceptions to what Islam is or isn't in their view. For example, if you debate a Shi'a you'll find some arguments will need to be adjusted (lots of hadith goes out of the window, for example). If Muslims themselves can't agree on the details, why should I be overly worried about trying to perfect a definition of Islam? Outside of a purely ideological sphere of argument the distinctions begin to blur and are less important, imo. For example, a fascist could argue that anti-semitism isn't part of their definition of fascism. The fact that many fascists happen to be anti-semitic can be explained away through various disingenuous arguments. This of course ignores the mindset that fascism instills in its proponents and the behaviours it encourages. From this perspective, Islam is blameless for most of what goes on in the Muslim world, because it doesn't directly proscribe much of what goes on, or the implementation of its proscriptions have been skewed.


    The Force is strong with this one.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #26 - May 14, 2010, 03:22 PM

    yeezeevee, I like you, even though you are strange sometimes  Afro


    Billy you need to put your yeezeevee glasses on, it was obviously a joke. Here you can borrow this guy's glasses:

  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #27 - May 14, 2010, 03:44 PM

     Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #28 - May 14, 2010, 03:47 PM



    Quote
    Tariq Ramadan on Iranian TV (3)
    05.05.10: The Iranian government has participated in the Muslim Brotherhood’s effort to “destroy…Western civilization from within” by sponsoring a TV series hosted by Tariq Ramadan and targeting English-speaking viewers around the world since April 2008


    Quote
    Dato publisert: 5/5/2010   Siste gang redigert: 5/5/2010 8:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     

    This is the last of three articles about Tariq Ramadan by Marc Lebuis and Étienne Harvey of the Quebec-based Point de Bascule blog. 

     
    Tariq Ramadan on Iranian TV
     
    Tariq Ramadan’s current speaking tour of North America has met with widespread enthusiasm from the media and from appeasers of Islam in all walks of life.  In Montreal, however, the blog Point de Bascule (Tipping Point) organized a press conference featuring several powerful speakers with Muslim backgrounds who offered a picture of Ramadan that is based in facts and that contrasts dramatically with the benign image offered by the mainstream press.  This is the last in a series of three articles in which Marc Lebuis and Étienne Harvey of Point de Bascule offer a definitive account of who Ramadan really is and what he really stands for, as demonstrated by his own words and those of the Islamic scholars he most admires


    Read article here :http://www.rights.no/publisher/publisher.asp?id=59&tekstid=3533

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Tarek Fatah on Tariq Ramadan
     Reply #29 - March 04, 2011, 10:57 AM

    Tarek Fateh, with hostpital bedside photos, announced he had lympahtic cancer on facebook yesterday. 

    Here is what one muslim said "Once again, this is a beautiful example of bad things happening to bad people(eg. Christopher Hitchens)." http://drmaxtor.blogspot.com/2011/03/t-fat-has-cancer-and-im-loving-it.html

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