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Reply #270 - August 27, 2015, 10:25 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 27, 2015, 09:36 AM
As I pointed out, the fact that he calls for death for adulterers and is listed on a website for adulterers *is* in the public interest. Just as is anyone calling for death to homosexuals and indulges in homosexual acts. That alone is sufficient to explain why one would be interested in checking if someone with bigoted views is in a database that would prove them a hypocrite. My answer was terse because it's so obvious, and the question was clearly asked in a derogatory way.

Don't disagree with you for the first part, but do you really think his question was derogatory? That's a bit much. And if you're asking for the database on the forum I think it's more than fair to ask. HM clearly didn't share your interest in the story, but it wasn't a derogatory question.

Whabbist just so happened to have given some good advice a couple pages back by now about explaining yourself clearly and then leaving it at that, so I reckon I'll take it. I'm not sitting here saying you're full of shit after your most recent explanation or that I'm not buying your response to my post, so honestly, you could stand to tone the defensiveness down a bit. You weren't about to indulge us when we asked you, I told you how it looked to me and that what you were saying was hard to believe and why (complete with disclaimers that you would know better than I, and an apology if I was off-base), you gave a response dripping with sarcasm and insults, I implored you to understand why it looked this way to us, but clearly the door is closed.

We're working with what we saw. We don't have your emails between Tzortzis or your buddies. We're looking at it from the public perspective and it looked bad from there. If you really can't understand this or our reaction, that's fine. You want to feel this persecuted and tell us to go fuck ourselves, it's fine. It's no skin off my back. But I think I made myself pretty clear. And so look, Whabbist: I'm leaving it up to him.
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Reply #271 - August 27, 2015, 10:48 AM

Rationalizer, thank you for the hard work.

Unlike some people here, some of us actually live in muslim country - and thus we are susceptible to death threats and creeping Sharia Law.

Dishonest apologists like Hamza literally makes his living from crushing our lives. Nobody remembers Prof. Hoodboy's conversation with Hamza I guess?

Dishonesty (especially the ones who are making fat checks by advocating murder) must be exposed.

End his career, period.

You have nothing to apologize for, TR.
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Reply #272 - August 27, 2015, 10:50 AM

^ I agree, this has been blown out of proportion to the point of ridiculouness
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Reply #273 - August 27, 2015, 10:53 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDThq0svtX8

Well I can learn something from watching these tubes below instead of taking about a FOOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN4I_RjQ0o8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4Jj981JrA

there is more to learn in those two tubes than all the nonsense in this thread along with that Nutcase tortilla and what he preaches ... That fool must realize what he does around the globe has potential to create more trouble than good to the society ....

So goodbye my friends.... .. not worth., not worth writing and not worth reading.....

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Reply #274 - August 27, 2015, 10:56 AM

Quote from: Helaine on August 27, 2015, 10:48 AM
Unlike some people here, some of us actually live in muslim country - and thus we are susceptible to death threats and creeping Sharia Law.

Dishonest apologists like Hamza literally makes his living from crushing our lives. Nobody remembers Prof. Hoodboy's conversation with Hamza I guess?

Dishonesty (especially the ones who are making fat checks by advocating murder) must be exposed.

End his career, period.

1. Few people are saying Tzortzis being exposed was a bad thing or that we wouldn't want his career ended. Yes, we remember what he did with Professor Hoodbhoy, and we mention it often here.

2. Some of us do, however, disagree that this is what will make anyone suffering under some form of sharia more safe. Attacking the ideas rather than replaceable figureheads is, in my opinion, what will change minds on the issue. But again, we all discussed that in more detail in earlier pages of the thread.

3. Perhaps this is one case where I didn't actually make myself clear: didn't say TR did anything wrong. Did tell him I had a hard time believing he was doing it to help Tzortzis and the contrast of what he did and what he said he did, before he went into more detail, was tripping me up and making some of us do a double-take. In fact, you don't seem to think he was doing it to help Tzortzis because you're thanking him for his hard work in taking him down. If he hadn't been saying he was doing Tzortzis a favor, I'd have never raised an eyebrow in the first place.
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Reply #275 - August 27, 2015, 11:08 AM

Quote from: lua on August 27, 2015, 10:56 AM

..................Attacking the ideas rather than replaceable figureheads is, in my opinion, what will change minds on the issue. ..........................

Changing minds of people "On what Issue"?? .. On religious ideologies or this bickering about a dawh fool?

if it is about a religious ideology., I don't think you are correct there lua.. you got to do both.,

Not exposing and not criticizing such figure heads and there Ideas is the reason "......why Islam is what it is......" or for that matter why any religion/ takes hold of any society and drags it down the drain.....

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Reply #276 - August 27, 2015, 11:18 AM

Lua. I'm sorry if it came across I was criticising you specifically in my comments, I was using my replies to your queries as a vent about the various negative comments (including false accusations of illegal activity).

Quote from: lua on August 27, 2015, 10:56 AM
2. Some of us do, however, disagree that this is what will make anyone suffering under some form of sharia more safe. Attacking the ideas rather than replaceable figureheads is, in my opinion, what will change minds on the issue. But again, we all discussed that in more detail in earlier pages of the thread.

I disagree. If a person's actions contradict what they say then it weakens what they say in their argument.

Quote from: lua on August 27, 2015, 10:56 AM
If he hadn't been saying he was doing Tzortzis a favor, I'd have never raised an eyebrow in the first place.

I think I have said it a few times now, I was not doing H a favour. I was looking to see who is a hypocrite to satisfy my own curiosity. I simply handled the discovery in a respectable manner. The blog was a result of misinformation elsewhere. In fact, if you wish you can read the events that annoyed me sufficiently to write the blog. After changing the article it was still wrong. There is a big difference between valid (a state) and validated (an action).

https://twitter.com/TheRationaliser/status/636086517392408576

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Reply #277 - August 27, 2015, 11:23 AM

Quote from: lua on August 27, 2015, 10:56 AM
2. Some of us do, however, disagree that this is what will make anyone suffering under some form of sharia more safe. Attacking the ideas rather than replaceable figureheads is, in my opinion, what will change minds on the issue. But again, we all discussed that in more detail in earlier pages of the thread.

I disagree. Muslims copy and paste arguments they get from "scholars" they watch somewhere. Including Naik and Hamza.

That's how they decide their vote as well, by listening to these toxic ideas about how bad atheists are.

Taking down vocal islamists is a good way to destroy the arguments.

Quote
3. Perhaps this is one case where I didn't actually make myself clear: didn't say TR did anything wrong. Did tell him I had a hard time believing he was doing it to help Tzortzis and the contrast of what he did and what he said he did, before he went into more detail, was tripping me up and making some of us do a double-take. In fact, you don't seem to think he was doing it to help Tzortzis because you're thanking him for his hard work in taking him down. If he hadn't been saying he was doing Tzortzis a favor, I'd have never raised an eyebrow in the first place.

I actually think TR informing Hamza about the leak was a class act. Seriously, if I were him I would send an article to any liberal newspaper immediately.
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Reply #278 - August 27, 2015, 11:33 AM

At RT: don't apologize to me for that. I was actually talking off-forum after my post detailing my suspicions that that was probably not the right way to go about it and was thinking of apologizing for not doing that more privately when you got back. But then fightin' words done started happening and I got swept away.

Took a lot of your comments to mean that you were just being a nice guy the whole way through instead of handling it nicely, the latter part I could've agreed with. Like this threw me: https://twitter.com/TheRationaliser/status/636493456974696448 You see where I'm coming from?

Off to work, but re you and Yeez and Helene: we might have to disagree on that point. I don't think a lot of religious people have their faith shaken when a figure is caught in an ironic lie, like I was telling gal. These stories are as old as religion. Rapists in the church. Gay gay-hate preachers. Adulterers, liars, thieves, opportunists. Doesn't dent the religion, or it would've by now. Ideas and dialogue do. In all but a very few cases, if any, Tzortzis' supporters will think twice about Tzortzis, not their beliefs. Tzortzis goes, focus shifts to one of the others in the endless supply of charismatic salesmen.

Although we still should rise to meet the apologists. But the devil is in the details: do it intellectually, combat their ideas, expose them specifically for something that is harming others. Taking them down for character flaws like this will not have quite the same results. Satisfying, perhaps, but that's all I can agree on. If you're interested, try looking at the earlier pages of the thread. Whabbist and Hassan and HappyMurtad all made excellent posts on the matter that I think would be worth reading. I'd be interested to hear what you say afterwards. That was the better part of the discussions on this thread.

And for the last part of your post just now, Helene, I don't disagree. Actually agreed some posts back, somewhere in that mess.
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Reply #279 - August 27, 2015, 11:50 AM

lua, my tweet was in reply to the "all the effort" context. I made far more effort than I could naturally be arsed to only in order to help H understand what is in the data. It was the "extra mile" I did to help H. The initial curiosity I have explained, and the final additional effort was due to what I saw as misinformation in a news report.

When I get home I have to go through the data some more. I had previously deleted the data and my Linux virtual machine, but H wrote and asked if I'd look into some more questions about the data so I am in the process of re-installing and re-importing it. I don't want the hassle to be honest, but it feels better than letting him down. I think he has the right to know what exactly is in there about him and is (seemingly) not technically competent to do it himself. That is the only reason I did a deeper analysis than spotting him in the credit card data, because he was asking me questions, and it is the only reason I will be doing it some more tonight. However, you won't get to learn what I discover unless it is reported elsewhere and I disagree with the conclusion (especially if I feel it is being deliberately misleading); just as I have done so far.

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Reply #280 - August 27, 2015, 12:50 PM

I think very highly of nearly everyone on CEMB. This place is of beautiful truths the like of which, if you ask me, it's very hard to find anywhere on the internet. If such a site is out there, please, please lead me to it because to me it is terra incognita. Even when you guys are being frivolous and absolutely silly, you’re so fun, so incredibly real. So wonderful. Pain has aged you all —some more and some less — to the extent where certain normative marvels cannot completely escape from notice even from a flying visit to CEMB. Normative marvels which are in dire short supply elsewhere when it comes to our sort of struggle and misery; marvels like fellow feeling, not judging, fair-mindedness, integrity, honesty and seriousness of purpose. I therefore will not, I repeat, I will not apologise for harshly holding you to higher standards of conduct. I will not apologise for expecting a lot and expecting a lot better from you. I don't mind it if you call me an irretrievable fool because that’s what I am for insisting on your specialness. I’m being harsh on some people here because you’re otherwise good. Indeed, so good that if this wasn’t a little bit of stupidity on your part which, at the same time, accentuates the decent majority of your qualities; if this wasn't an error of judgement from which you’d soon rise and return to your usual selves, then what’s the point of anything lovable? I am not sorry that I am not sorry that you're so much better than this.

--------------------------
PS: Lua, how long would you wait before outing me as a hypocrite for coming back after having made my point abundantly clear?
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Reply #281 - August 27, 2015, 01:17 PM

Quote from: Whabbist on August 27, 2015, 12:50 PM
I think very highly of nearly everyone on CEMB. This place is of beautiful truths the like of which, if you ask me, it's very hard to find anywhere on the internet... Even when you guys are being frivolous and absolutely silly, you’re so fun, so incredibly real. So wonderful. Pain has aged you all —some more and some less — to the extent where certain normative marvels cannot completely escape from notice even from a flying visit to CEMB. Normative marvels which are in dire short supply elsewhere when it comes to our sort of struggle and misery; marvels like fellow feeling, not judging, fair-mindedness, integrity, honesty and seriousness of purpose....

My thoughts exactly, Wahabist!
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Reply #282 - August 27, 2015, 01:26 PM
Quote from: Whabbist on August 27, 2015, 12:50 PM
I think very highly of nearly everyone on CEMB. This place is of beautiful truths the like of which, if you ask me, it's very hard to find anywhere on the internet.

............. ...I don't mind it if you call me an irretrievable fool because that’s what I am for insisting on your specialness..........................................
I’m being harsh on some people here because you’re otherwise good. Indeed, so good that if this wasn’t a little bit of stupidity on your part which, at the same time, accentuates the decent majority of your qualities; if this wasn't an error of judgement from which you’d soon rise and return to your usual selves,
then what’s the point of anything lovable? I am not sorry that I am not sorry that you're so much better than this.
....................
hellooo Whabbist you are a emotional wreck

So many sorrys and so many spankings in one post...lol.. So in those highlighted words did you want to say..

........ "I am sorry that I am NOT sorry" ................ instead of "I am not sorry that I am not sorry"??

and here
Quote
............. ...I don't mind it if you call me an irretrievable fool because that’s what I am for insisting on your specialness..................

No....No.., if not other guys of this forum you can insist on my specialness, you can praise me.. you can praise the lord and you can praise yeezevee.. it boosts bit of personal ego..

.....yeeeha......." yeezevee is good guy"..............

.........you can say that Whabbist.............

with best wishes
yeezevee
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Reply #283 - August 27, 2015, 02:05 PM

Quote
I don't think a lot of religious people have their faith shaken when a figure is caught in an ironic lie, like I was telling gal. These stories are as old as religion. Rapists in the church. Gay gay-hate preachers. Adulterers, liars, thieves, opportunists. Doesn't dent the religion, or it would've by now. Ideas and dialogue do. In all but a very few cases, if any, Tzortzis' supporters will think twice about Tzortzis, not their beliefs. Tzortzis goes, focus shifts to one of the others in the endless supply of charismatic salesmen.

Although we still should rise to meet the apologists. But the devil is in the details: do it intellectually, combat their ideas, expose them specifically for something that is harming others. Taking them down for character flaws like this will not have quite the same results. Satisfying, perhaps, but that's all I can agree on. If you're interested, try looking at the earlier pages of the thread. Whabbist and Hassan and HappyMurtad all made excellent posts on the matter that I think would be worth reading. I'd be interested to hear what you say afterwards. That was the better part of the discussions on this thread.

The current child sex abuse scandals in the catholic church caused a major dent in the religion, resulting in followers numbers falling drastically in places such as Ireland .. you are right though about the Tzortzis scandal, it won't be the cause of a major Islamic decline around the globe lol, won't even dent it, it will though cause many people to question the religion and these hate preaching bigots like Hamza. I agree with all else you said above about tackling these apologists head on in an intellectual manner rather than defaming them, would be ideal.. but It is what it is.
I'm rubbish at debates lol so I will quit rambling away..
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Reply #284 - August 27, 2015, 02:46 PM

Quote from: Helaine on August 27, 2015, 10:48 AM
Nobody remembers Prof. Hoodboy's conversation with Hamza I guess?

I was just chatting with some people about that the other day.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #285 - August 27, 2015, 11:58 PM

@ RT, alright. I'll take your word for it, but I hope you understand why some of us were concerned.

@ Whabbist, I never would. You've totally won me over and I want you to keep talking.
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Reply #286 - August 28, 2015, 01:02 AM

Whoops, forgot:

@ Suki, my understanding of that situation is that a lot of people stopped attending church. I don't know if it's fair to conclude that they all lost their faith in the religion. At least over here, there is a diminished trust for many people in organized religion, not just because of incidents like this, but because of changing attitudes towards religion and the newer lack of necessity to be active members of a congregation. Maybe someone else here can provide some deeper insight on that particular situation?

Nevertheless, Christianity is still enormous. These religions have some stamina. And I know we agree on the rest: just a short time of our current age, where information is free and easier to access than it ever has been, where ideas are exchanged and dialogue can be opened with people from all corners of the world, has done more to change the face of these religions and the perception of religion than hundreds or thousands of years of busted preachers did.

I will agree that perhaps the dishonesty or deception of religious leaders may be the catalyst that starts some deeper reflection of the truth or lack thereof of a person's religion if it just so happens to shake them that deeply at the right time in their life, but it's typically not the case that religions individuals--especially the kind of deeply-religious folk Helene is worried about--are going to doubt their religion for it.
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Reply #287 - August 28, 2015, 07:26 AM

Hi, yeah, thats right, the church scandals, gay and womens rights, abortion etc have only played a small part in it's slow demise, the exchanging of ideas that you mentioned above, aided by the internet has caused the biggest blow to all religions.

Infact i remember, prior to all of this, before the invention of the internet even, gosh i'm old lol, back in the 80's when i was a kid, i remember the church attendence slowly dieing off, the priest would thank the rest of congregation for bothering to show up for the sunday service, people favoured going to the pubs and bars on sundays with their family and friends, i remember being a bit surprised at the time.

Yep, i guess our western pop culture, especially that of the late 20th century has had the biggest impact on religion (not forgetting science and philosophy lol). Thats why Islam has always discouraged all of the arts, other than it's own limited version.
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Reply #288 - August 28, 2015, 02:54 PM

Lua: you say those student days yet your continuous beautiful soul has to be a gift beyond excess to CEMB. I love Musivore, love him dearly, but he cannot be alone in wanting you to rule the world.
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Reply #289 - August 28, 2015, 05:06 PM

Quote from: suki on August 28, 2015, 07:26 AM
Hi, yeah, thats right, the church scandals, gay and womens rights, abortion etc have only played a small part in it's slow demise, the exchanging of ideas that you mentioned above, aided by the internet has caused the biggest blow to all religions.

Infact i remember, prior to all of this, before the invention of the internet even, gosh i'm old lol, back in the 80's when i was a kid, i remember the church attendence slowly dieing off, the priest would thank the rest of congregation for bothering to show up for the sunday service, people favoured going to the pubs and bars on sundays with their family and friends, i remember being a bit surprised at the time.

Yep, i guess our western pop culture, especially that of the late 20th century has had the biggest impact on religion (not forgetting science and philosophy lol). Thats why Islam has always discouraged all of the arts, other than it's own limited version.

One major change that is still being felt is the freedom of interpretation of the Bible from the Reformation period and freedom of religion. This has lead to an internalized interpretation of the Bible which reflects the person's current views as the Biblical views. Hence why different denominations have different views when it comes to same sex marriage. People change to denomination that reflect their views. Hardliners isolate themselves from competing views regardless of being positive or negative. People will start to drift away from requiring "experts" telling them what the Bible means. People that support LGTB are not going to follow an hardliner evangelical view which is the complete opposite. People no longer fear the government becoming involved in dictating which interpretation is correct or not.

Take Hassan for example, maybe he can fill in some blanks, as to how these freedoms change religion. How free would he be to develop his view of Islam, and express them, in different Muslim nations? Would he face more threat against his views or live? Freedom of religion did not just cover rival denominations and religions but the individual. It is not just pop-culture, it is the laws of these nation and the cultures which change religions role in society. Who knows, in a century Hassan could have jump started an agnostic sect/denomination of "Western Islam" or whatever you want to call it.
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Reply #290 - August 28, 2015, 11:30 PM

Quote from: Whabbist on August 28, 2015, 02:54 PM
Lua: you say those student days yet your continuous beautiful soul has to be a gift beyond excess to CEMB. I love Musivore, love him dearly, but he cannot be alone in wanting you to rule the world.

Aw! Whabbist, that'd flatter me coming from anyone, but from you it even makes me blush. And I think you'd be much better for the job.

And I also love Musivore dearly, even if in all the excitement I managed to miss his sweet posts here.
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Reply #291 - August 29, 2015, 07:58 AM

Quote from: bogart on August 28, 2015, 05:06 PM
One major change that is still being felt is the freedom of interpretation of the Bible from the Reformation period and freedom of religion. This has lead to an internalized interpretation of the Bible which reflects the person's current views as the Biblical views. Hence why different denominations have different views when it comes to same sex marriage. People change to denomination that reflect their views. Hardliners isolate themselves from competing views regardless of being positive or negative. People will start to drift away from requiring "experts" telling them what the Bible means. People that support LGTB are not going to follow an hardliner evangelical view which is the complete opposite. People no longer fear the government becoming involved in dictating which interpretation is correct or not.

Take Hassan for example, maybe he can fill in some blanks, as to how these freedoms change religion. How free would he be to develop his view of Islam, and express them, in different Muslim nations? Would he face more threat against his views or live? Freedom of religion did not just cover rival denominations and religions but the individual. It is not just pop-culture, it is the laws of these nation and the cultures which change religions role in society. Who knows, in a century Hassan could have jump started an agnostic sect/denomination of "Western Islam" or whatever you want to call it.

Ah yes, thanks Bogart, i totally forgot about the Reformation in england and europe doh, yep that would definately be the major factor here lol.. I was just thinking about what may have caused the remaining church goer numbers to fall so drastically, especially from the 60's onwards.

An Islamic reformation, can't even imagine, the only one's doing the reforming at the moment seem to be ISIS :/ ... Perhaps Hassan could be the Martin Luther of our time lol jk.. I wish him all the best with his efforts..

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Reply #292 - August 29, 2015, 09:10 AM

Martin Luther was a biblical literalist, fundamentalist and vicious anti-Semite. The last thing Islam needs is a Martin Luther, (it could be argued that Islam already has too many of them). What Islam could do with is their own Enlightenment, not its own Reformation.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Reply #293 - August 29, 2015, 09:53 AM

Yes, absolutely, just using my usual irony lol.. :/ : )
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Reply #294 - August 29, 2015, 12:45 PM

Quote from: suki on August 29, 2015, 07:58 AM
Ah yes, thanks Bogart, i totally forgot about the Reformation in england and europe doh, yep that would definately be the major factor here lol.. I was just thinking about what may have caused the remaining church goer numbers to fall so drastically, especially from the 60's onwards.

My sarcasm meter may not be working.

The same reasoning still applies. Freedom of interpretation and of religion. People do not need organized religions as much anymore. They crate their own internal view.
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Reply #295 - August 29, 2015, 01:56 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on August 29, 2015, 09:10 AM
Martin Luther was a biblical literalist, fundamentalist and vicious anti-Semite.

well when we loose freedom of expression and freedom to question., then good people like Martin Luthers and Muhammads who were sympathetic to Jewish resistance turn to anti semites and juice haters

Quote
The last thing Islam needs is a Martin Luther, (it could be argued that Islam already has too many of them). What Islam could do with is their own Enlightenment, not its own Reformation.

Hu!..
Cheetah doesn't like Hassan Radwan.... she doesn't want Hassan Radwan to become Martin Luther of Muhammad's Islam..

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Reply #296 - August 29, 2015, 02:42 PM

Quote from: bogart on August 29, 2015, 12:45 PM
My sarcasm meter may not be working.

The same reasoning still applies. Freedom of interpretation and of religion. People do not need organized religions as much anymore. They crate their own internal view.

Not disagreeing with you.. I was just referring to our current times, especially from the 50's, 60's onwards, and how (along with freedom of religion and expression) our popular culture, music, fashion, media, sports etc, has managed to replaced religion almost entirely.. If only the same thing could happen in the Islamic countries with the teens there.

The sarcasm was about Hassan being the new Luther, was just a joke.. : )

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