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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why do we experience grief?

 (Read 3882 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Why do we experience grief?
     OP - September 17, 2010, 11:06 PM

    According to evolutionary perspectives?

    I know the main reasonings are because of how painful grief is, it helped people to be more protective of their relatives and allies to prevent more losses, and also people who were grieving would show themselves to be strong allies because of how much they cared about their loss allies.

    But I'm not fully convinced, because grief is so debilitating, it really makes us very unproductive during that time. Some people can even go insane not being able to cope with their loss. Huh?


    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #1 - September 17, 2010, 11:12 PM

    By the way, my grandmother passed away 3 months ago. I'm still grieving, she was like a mother to me. This was my first loss, and my first time experiencing grief this major. I've never felt anything this painful in my life. I don't believe in afterlife, I believe once you're dead, that's it. You're gone. Only the memories left. And it's really hard to accept that I'll never see her again. But I've come to terms with it some, and what helps is because the idea of eternity sounds so scary to me! Gah, it always boggles my mind to think that that's actually the main reason why people are attracted to religion, because they want to live for eternity. Let me sleep forever, thank you very much.

    But I'd love to see my grandma again. Not for eternity, but just for one more day to spend time with her, to hug her and tell her I love her.

    I miss her so much.  Cry

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #2 - September 17, 2010, 11:26 PM

    On the other hand, I'm glad I'm already an unbeliever during this difficult time. It really hurts me when my mom keeps spouting religious BS to me about what happens to us in the grave, and the threat of hellfire, and then proceeding to ask me to pray for my grandma (I haven't prayed in years, so I think that might be her attempt to make me pray again), so I bet it would have hurt me even more if I believed that shit.

    I thought the idea of religion is supposed to give people comfort about their loved ones after death? From what I know, Islam fails to provide the comfort because my mom is still worried about the possibility of my grandma being tortured in her grave?  Huh? Can someone enlighten me more about this?

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #3 - September 17, 2010, 11:38 PM

    Big topic. Have to think on it.

    fuck you
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #4 - September 18, 2010, 12:24 AM

    grief is linked to caring, and caring is linked to our strong familial & society bonds that made us so successful as a unit during our evolution.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #5 - September 18, 2010, 12:50 AM


    Death signifies an end and the view that you will never see that person again.

    I think that grief is more of a case of responding to the loss, rather than the death itself.
    If you care about something and you lose it, its saddening, so I presume you simply have to scale it up.

    Ofcourse, I don't grieve, I just tend to accept it after a bout of sadness , so I can only comment so much.
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #6 - September 18, 2010, 12:52 AM

    Ofcourse, I don't grieve, I just tend to accept it after a bout of sadness , so I can only comment so much.

    Of course not, you're Spock after all

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #7 - September 18, 2010, 03:18 AM

    I think people experience grief when they are disconnected with those whom they love. It is at that time when all the emotions are set on edge. It also depends on the situation, how well one knows it, and how well one can handle the loss.

    Grief comes in stages from high to low, up to down, sudden death to prolonged agony, etc. With death come an end to all the love one receives, private talks and times together, laughter, and so on.
    Sometimes grief make a person stronger(It does to me), or causes a person to commit suicide, drink, despair, do drugs etc.

    Grief is also a natural part of living just like happiness. We know that we cannot be happy 24/7-365 days the rest of our lives. Grief is a trial for many yet it opens the way for remembrance and prayer for some.

    Lukatic
    Quote
    :"From what I know, Islam fails to provide the comfort because my mom is still worried about the possibility of my grandma being tortured in her grave?   Can someone enlighten me more about this?"


    What part would you liked to try and understand? Maybe I can help...?!?!
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #8 - September 18, 2010, 10:32 AM

    It’s difficult isn’t it. Nobody really has a handle on grief. Nobody can really explain it with any real relevance to what it actually is, at least not in a way that matters to those grieving. We can give all the good advice, all the well thought out and sincere words of comfort and have all the best intentions and reliable philosophies, but the cold, hard reality of the situation eclipses it all. Advice is easy to give, and we might fool ourselves into believing we have the answers, or a sound, healthy attitude to death and grief, but it all goes out of the window when we find ourselves faced with it. Only a dead heart will not be affected, only the truly heartless would say it doesn’t affect them and mean it. Its more likely just a person lying to themselves as part of a coping process who would say that, not truly facing the fact and not truly dealing with it.

    We are strange animals. We are creatures of habit and patterns and order. We need things to make sense, and when they don’t, traditionally we have pretend things to plug in the gaps, sometimes honest and well meant attempts to explain things, sometimes just vain imaginings that do more harm than good. And if we don’t have these things to fall back on, we spiral out of synch. We get desperate and claw at things, trying to put it all back in order, trying to stop our insides from spilling out. We are truly precious, delicately balanced, and very imaginative. We like to be in control of things and have plenty of ways of deluding ourselves that we are in control when really we are just along for the ride. We are happier deluding ourselves when reality makes no sense, rather than actually look at something and truly see it. We all wear masks, even day to day, even during the mundane daily grind. Reality isn’t all that pretty most of the time, is it? Life gets in the way of truly living. Not everyone has the luxury of stopping to smell the flowers, so we just tend to make the most of what we can, and try and be happy with our little slice of life, appreciate the small comforts and perhaps a vice or two, just to split the days up and stop them blending into one long treadmill.

    I lost someone very close to me a few years back. It was sudden and hit me like freight train. I didn’t even want to get out of bed for months because I was so depressed. Completely despondent, couldn’t function properly or talk about anything without it jumping to the front of my thoughts. Just always there, except maybe for that split second when I first woke up in the morning. And what angered me most was people saying “it will be alright” and such, until it just became background noise, and then I’d get angry at myself for being angry at people who only had the best intentions at heart. I just wanted to scream GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME, IT’S NOT ALRIGHT, IT’S ALL FUCKED. I didn’t want to hear “it will be alright” I wanted someone to tell me it actually wasn’t alright. I wanted someone to really, really understand, probably due to some desperate and hopeless need for validation and comfort. There was a hole in my world swallowing me up. I needed something real to hold onto. I ached with the memory of him, felt the absence like craven hunger.

    I think its important to grieve. Its good to cry it all out, all the bad vibes or poison in your system or whatever, get it all out. Grief is as physical as it is psychological. Stress can give you all kinds of ailments, can wreck your body if you let it build up. I think grief is a way to purify that side of us amongst other things. Maybe I’m wrong, dunno. I always feel better after a good cry. The same as after a good belly laugh. Strange I guess. The good finds its way back into your inner equilibrium eventually. It’s overpowering. Its an organic thing. You've just gotta let it come naturally in its own time. The darkness wins the first few battles during the initial confusion and anger, but the light breaks through eventually. I certainly cry a little easier and laugh a little easier since I lost my friend. But it comes from a better place now. Whereas before it was coming from the out of control thoughts running through my head, all locked up in visions of death and emergency rooms, now its from fondness, remembering his smile, hearing his favourite song, hearing my friends talk about the good person he was. Its happy crying. The person he was, he still is. He’s still here. He’s still a very real presence in my life. His mark is all around my world, his fingerprints all over me. I can still hear his voice, still think about the things he said, still see him even, still feel him. We are still around, long after our mortal flesh expires, as long as people know us or knew us. What makes up a person? We are the sum of our parts, so much more than physical presence. I mean look at us, talking to each other on a forum. We’ve never seen each other.

    Anyways, I’m rambling. Why do we experience grief? Who knows? I don’t. Here’s some Sagan to lift your spirits:

    “I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking.

    The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
     
    ~ Carl Sagan, In the Valley of the Shadow

    Peace, love, empathy, hugs. From one godless ape to another.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #9 - September 18, 2010, 03:00 PM

     Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro Afro

    Great post, Ishina. Thank you.  far away hug

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #10 - September 18, 2010, 04:25 PM

    .
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #11 - September 18, 2010, 04:30 PM


    What part would you liked to try and understand? Maybe I can help...?!?!


    Well, I meant people from other religions would usually tell grieving people "Don't worry, he/she's in a better place now", but it doesn't quite work in Islam, because Muslims believe that there will be questioning and punishment in the grave while waiting to be resurrected on the day of judgment. What kind of sadistic religion is this? So Islam=FAIL.

    Does anyone know more about this grave torture in Islam and is it unique to Islam?

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #12 - September 18, 2010, 04:41 PM

    @Mount A Bison

    Another great post!   yes yes yes yes  grin12

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #13 - September 18, 2010, 04:47 PM

    Grief is the expression of loss, experienced in the absence of. Given that we can experience happier emotions such as love, joy, ecstacy and everything else that puts us in good stead, it's natural to feel the opposite when we're deprived of this.
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #14 - September 18, 2010, 04:48 PM

    How amusing to think of angels beating up on docile grannies!


     Lmao

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #15 - September 18, 2010, 05:09 PM

    .
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #16 - September 18, 2010, 05:22 PM

     040 Grin Grin Grin Grin

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #17 - September 18, 2010, 05:28 PM

    Btw, how come there's still no Ex-Muslim under your handle?  Huh? You're an ex-Muslim, right?

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #18 - September 18, 2010, 05:30 PM

    Btw, how come there's still no Ex-Muslim under your handle?  Huh? You're an ex-Muslim, right?

    Cause it's a boring admin job to change the label... Smiley

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #19 - September 18, 2010, 05:46 PM

    ha. Nice.
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #20 - September 18, 2010, 07:45 PM

    .
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #21 - September 18, 2010, 08:01 PM

    Re: being tortured in the grave.

    ~2 years ago I was at a talk from an Islamic scholar. He said that it sounds absurd that that people can be tortured in their graves. He then went on to say that it IS possible because modern science has proved alternate dimensions - and that the bodies/souls are tortured there. Even back then I thought he was full of shit. It's pathetic how Muslims are misappropriating science to try and prove their fairy tale.

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #22 - September 18, 2010, 08:53 PM

    .
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #23 - September 18, 2010, 11:55 PM

    @Mount A Bison

    Great video. But I'm actually not afraid of death. I welcome it. I'm afraid of life more than death.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #24 - September 19, 2010, 01:34 AM

    The 5 Stages of Grief

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcNQGNUncd4&feature=related

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #25 - September 19, 2010, 01:36 AM

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

    The 5 stages of grief:
    Quote
    Denial – "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me."
    Denial is usually only a temporary defense for the individual. This feeling is generally replaced with heightened awareness of situations and individuals that will be left behind after death.
    Anger – "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"
    Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. Any individual that symbolizes life or energy is subject to projected resentment and jealousy.
    Bargaining – "Just let me live to see my children graduate."; "I'll do anything for a few more years."; "I will give my life savings if..."
    The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow postpone or delay death. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Psychologically, the individual is saying, "I understand I will die, but if I could just have more time..."
    Depression – "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die... What's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
    During the fourth stage, the dying person begins to understand the certainty of death. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and grieving. This process allows the dying person to disconnect oneself from things of love and affection. It is not recommended to attempt to cheer up an individual who is in this stage. It is an important time for grieving that must be processed.
    Acceptance – "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
    In this last stage, the individual begins to come to terms with their mortality or that of their loved one.


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Why do we experience grief?
     Reply #26 - September 19, 2010, 07:09 AM

    I think that grief is likely to be a "side-effect" of kin selection ( preference for your family members over other people). The extreme attachment that we have to our family results in an exaggerated response to a death or news of terminal  illness.

    Assuming that evolutionary psychology develops the same way as evolution affect biology I would give the example of the sickle cell trait. This confers an advantage to the holder of increased resistance to malaria but with the trade off of susceptibility to sickle cell anaemia. As the likelyhood in sub-saharan africa that you will be exposed to malaria is greater than dying of a sickle cell crisis, the trade off is worthy.

    Similarly the advantages gained by attachment to family ( and close friends) ie cooperation , protection etc may outweigh the debilitating disavantages that occur with grief when we lose someone close.

    BTW I have no evidence to back this up , just my musings.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
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