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- Saif Rahman
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Facebook debate
OP - December 17, 2010, 08:25 PM

This is how it has gone so far..

Quote from: muslim apologist
Is enjoying Christmas and wishing merry Christmas so anti Islamic that Muslim children are scared s*** of enjoying the festive season and wishing their schoolmates? When did the religious divide become so entrenched and how can it be reversed?

Quote from: me
The minute Muhammed smashed all 360 Gods in Kaaba, and declared the place his own.

Quote from: other debater
In 628 AD, the Prophet Muhammad granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery near Mt. Sinai. Here is the text of it:

“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christiani...ty, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah, I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the Ummah (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day.”

I never heard about this covenant before - is it genuine? If so, its probably the strongest thing I have heard in defence of the apologists argument - and this time its from a non-muslim objective source.

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: Facebook debate
Reply #1 - December 17, 2010, 08:33 PM

Ask him what is the source of that, IsLame. I'd be interested to know. I doubt it's from sahih hadith. But could be from other lesser sources.
- Saif Rahman
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Re: Facebook debate
Reply #2 - December 17, 2010, 08:59 PM

No need I looked it up myself & replied

Quote
Thanks - no doubt Christians & Sabians were his favourites, the Quran even allows their men (not women until they convert) intermarriage with them. Polytheists & Jews however were treated differently. Having said that its still a good piece of evidence you have there.

I looked it up, and the first search I came across was a wiki link which describes it as spurious authenticity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad .

I wish it were true, and this were the overriding message to come through Islam though, as fanaticism has spread around the ummah like a virus.

I'm unfortunately reminded of the suicide note left by the recent swedish suicide bomber, Taimur Abdulwahab al-Abdaly, who left behind a wife & 3 young children. "the Muslims are so humiliated here in Sweden and other places in Europe that they sometimes pray for non-Muslims"

This kind of them & us mentality is common throughout the mosques today, its time we faced up to the root cause of the problems. If we dont, nothing will ever change :(

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- Winna
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Re: Facebook debate
Reply #3 - December 17, 2010, 09:09 PM

On the internet the text is also (almost) common with an alleged "Treaty of Najran", 631 AD
http://www.visit-islam.com/14%20archive.htm
http://www.mpac-ng.org/islam-links/162-prophet-muhammads-letters-a-covenants.html
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/treaty631.htm

A few references are indicated here and here.

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Re: Facebook debate
Reply #4 - December 17, 2010, 09:42 PM

Quote from: IsLame on December 17, 2010, 08:25 PM
This is how it has gone so far..

I never heard about this covenant before - is it genuine? If so, its probably the strongest thing I have heard in defence of the apologists argument - and this time its from a non-muslim objective source.

It's a fake. The monks say the letter was written in 628 a.d. after the Arab conquest. First the Arabs expanded their empire after Muhammed's death in 632 a.d. and Muhammed certainly did not lead his army into Egypt while he was alive.

The letter was probably written during the first anti-christian legistlations during the Ummayyd caliphate to reduce the effects of those legistlations. Jews of Baghdad made a similar letter in the 11th century, which created an uproar.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Facebook debate
Reply #5 - December 17, 2010, 09:45 PM

Thing is, Isabel, I don't mind if Muslims believe fake stuff if it helps them liberalise - I mean it's all fake bullshit anyway.

And please don't tell me Christians don't believe in fake/bullshit interpretations.
- Saif Rahman
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Re: Facebook debate
Reply #6 - December 17, 2010, 10:00 PM

Quote from: QueenIsabel on December 17, 2010, 09:42 PM
It's a fake. The monks say the letter was written in 628 a.d. after the Arab conquest. First the Arabs expanded their empire after Muhammed's death in 632 a.d. and Muhammed certainly did not lead his army into Egypt while he was alive.

The letter was probably written during the first anti-christian legistlations during the Ummayyd caliphate to reduce the effects of those legistlations. Jews of Baghdad made a similar letter in the 11th century, which created an uproar.

Thanks QI, I'll let them know

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