In another forum I commented on this video saying:
She said that despite her background in the history of early Islam, she's still an outsider exploring someone's else holy book. Well, as an insider let me assure to you that this smartass outsider has made huge mistakes, some of them are influenced by the Muslim apologists' propaganda.
1- She said:
"And when the bible is addressed exclusively to men using the (unclear) verb masculine, the Quran includes women, talking for instance of believing men and believing women."
Any 7 years old Arab kid knows that the Quran addresses exclusively men.The number of those verses that clearly address women are so few, while all the rest of the quran uses masculine pronouns.
The early Islamic sources, and all of the major interpretations of the Quran have recorded the following incident about the reason behind the revelation of the "best" and maybe the first of those verses that address women:
Um Salamah, one of Muhammad's wives, complained to Muhammad saying: "Why doesn't the Quran mention us (women) as it does with men?." A few days later, Muhammad announced the revelation of this verse: "For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. " (Quran 33:35).
The previous incident is recorded in Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Al-Nisai, Al-Tabari's interpretation of the Quran (the oldest interpretation), and Mujam Al-Tabarani. The Hadith scholars stated that this narration is authentic. All Muslim interpreters of the Quran also recorded this incident, which clearly shows that the Quran addresses men only. This incident is also one of the so many proofs that the Quran is made up by Muhammad, because god doesn't need to be reminded to speak to women.
2- The smartass outsider said:
"Take the infamous verse about killing the unbelievers. Yes it does say that, but in a very specific context, the anticipated conquest of the sanctuary city of Mecca, where fighting was usually forbidden. but the permission comes... not you must kill unbelievers in Mecca but you can, you are allowed to but only after a treaty period is over, and only if there's no other pact in place, and only if they tried to stop you getting to the Kaba, and only if they attack you first, and even then, god is merciful and forgiveness is supreme."
What a load of ignorance!
This infamous verse is known in the Islamic doctrine as the sword verses. This verse according to many major Muslim scholars had abrogated over 100 verses of the Quran of the nature of tolerance and compassion towards non-Muslims and different beliefs. This verse is among the ninth chapter of the Quran which was the last to be "revealed", so we are talking here about the final statements of Islam. For a better understanding of this verse, here's a quote from my book:
Eight years from the migration to Medina, a partial violation occurred with a peace treaty Muhammad had signed with the Meccans. Muhammad took advantage of this opportunity to take over Mecca. A leader of Mecca had personally traveled to Medina to make amends and re-affirm the treaty, but Muhammad refused the apology. He marched with an army of ten thousand towards Mecca, and its residents surrendered without a fight. Muhammad ordered the assassination of specific individuals including two slave girls because of their abusive songs against Muhammad. One was killed and the other escaped.
Muhammad entered the sanctuary in Mecca and destroyed all the idols that were installed for worship. He then pronounced a general amnesty and the entire city accepted Islam and pledged their allegiance to him.
By that time Muhammad had treaties with Arab pagans, some of them were for indefinite periods, and others had periods after which the treaty is not valid. A year after capturing Mecca, and during the pilgrimage season, one of the last and the worst chapters of the Quran was announced, the "repentance" chapter, which is amazingly full of hatred and death calls against non-believers, it's therefore the only chapter in the Quran that doesn't begin with the Islamic opening prayer which is 'In the name of Allah, the gracious, the most merciful'. In this chapter, Muhammad abrogated the indefinite treaties, giving the Arab pagans a period of four months during which they are safe from being attacked by Muslims, but once the four months pass, pagans will be fought unless they convert to Islam. Muhammad declared that those who had treaties with definite periods are safe until the treaty's period pass (See . Muhammad also banned pagans from entering Mecca (See Sirat Ibn Hisham, vol.2 p.543). Here are the first five verses of the "repentance" chapter:
Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 9:1-5, Pickthal's translation).
The last verse of the previous ones is known among Muslim scholars as "The sword verse", because it gave no more option for pagans but to either convert to Islam or face the sword, while before this verse was revealed, it was OK for Muslims to have treaties with Arab pagans. Christians and Jews had an additional option besides converting to Islam or death, which is paying a tribute, a verse in the same Quran chapter reads:
"Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor the day of judgment, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and his Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the people of the scripture, until they pay a tribute with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Quran 9:29)
I can say a lot in refuting her load of rubbish, but I don't want to make this thread too long.
3- finally, we come to her last genius claim that the word "Houris" - the virgins of the paradise- no one knows what it really means since that many things in the Quran are ambiguous. So "Houris" might mean "pure beings" like angles!.
Firstly, it's "hour een". secondly, there's no dispute among all of the Quran interpreters that these two words refer to the virgins of paradise which will be enjoyed by the men admitted there. Does this non-Arabic speaking outsider really believe that she has outstanded all those interpreters in 1400 years?
Thirdly, If she is trying to say that the "virgins" thing in the Islamic paradise is questionable, then let me tell this smartass that there are so many other Quran verses and sayings of Muhammad that explicitly speak about those virgins, and some of them even describe them in a sexual way.
Regards
Salim, an insider
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Zwaarddijk wrote:
There is an important point she doesn't mention explicitly, but kind of implies at which salim fails to acknowledge - reading the Quran is participating in a language game which most of us aren't used to. When reading it, we can't assume that the rules that hold in the language games of reading newspaper articles, participating in online discussions, or even reading the Gospels carry over.
The Quran is not the only surviving text of Islam, there are tons of Muhammad's and his companions' sayings. There's a detailed history of early Islam, and there are ancient huge interpretations of the Quran that are based on historical accounts rather than opinions. What you are saying is true regarding vague verses that we lack their historical backgrounds, and that the Quran interpreters disputed on. What the woman in the video did is rewriting history and throwing everything else other than the Quran in trash. This woman thought that reading four different English translations of the Quran allows her to make her own interpretations!. I am an ex-Muslim and a native Arabic speaker, yet when I read the Quran it's inevitable to read the ancient interpretations as they provide the historical backgrounds of many verses, and as they were written by people who spoke the classical Arabic language of the Quran.
Regarding the "Hour een" thing, I didn't criticize her for using "houris". When I said that I had in mind explaining the exact meaning of the "houris" mentioned in the Quran, so I had to state first what it really is in Arabic.
Oeditor wrote:
Much more interesting is his comment that it appears elsewhere in the Koran with a clear sexual connotation. Which would make pressing Luxenberg's grapes decidedly weird!
Salim: can we have a citation for that, please?
This "grapes" claim came out from a smartass German orientalist who wrote a book reinterpreting the Quran in the light of the Aramaic language!!!! Meaning that all the "mis-translations" he discovered were actually discovered for the first time by this smart ass author who outstanded all the Arabic language and Quran scholars during the past 1400 years who unanimously stated that "Hour Een" means "maidens with big black and white lovely eyes", which is usually translated in English as "Virgins".It's useful to say here that In ancient Arabia, wide eyes with very black iris are the ultimate sign of beauty. So what the Quran is really trying to say is that those virgins are very beautiful.
The "Hour" word is mentioned in the Quran four times, in three of the four verses it's quite clear that "Hour" can't mean anything like "grapes".
The first verse in Sura no. 44:
51. Verily! The Muttaqûn (pious -- see V.2:2), will be in place of Security (Paradise)...54. So (it will be), and We shall marry them to Houris (female fair ones) with wide, lovely eyes.
The second verse in Sura no.52
17. Verily, the Muttaqûn (pious -- see V.2:2) will be in Gardens (Paradise), and Delight... 20. They will recline (with ease) on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Houris (female, fair ones) with wide lovely eyes.
The third verse in Sura no.55
72. Houris (beautiful, fair females) restrained in pavilions:...74. Whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them.
There are other verses in the Quran that referred to those virgins without using the word "Hour", here's one with an explicit sexual content
The pious ones will be triumphant (78:31).
They will have gardens and vineyards, (78:32) maidens with pears-shaped breasts who are of equal age (78:33) and cups full of wine (78:34).
http://almubin.tripod.com/mdsarwar.htmThe verse in Hilali Khan translation is:
33. And young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age;
http://www.mlivo.com/translations/Hilali%20Khan.htmI don't think that "Maidens with pears-shaped breasts" is actually about grapes according the German smartass, or about angels according the Jewish smartass who both tried to disassociate Islam from the infamous virgins of paradise .I can't imagine grapes with pears-shaped breasts, but I can imagine angels with those. And man, they are really hot angels!.
Regards
Salim, pears-shaped breasts seeker
Topic: Interesting Talk on the Qur'an