Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'

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- TheLeader
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #30 - August 22, 2011, 04:06 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on August 22, 2011, 01:29 PM
A short intro on how to derive models of morality using reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ

The beginning of the video claims that 'majority preference' is not moral. Who decided that? Utilitarians would disagree - "The greatest happiness of the majority is moral". Why is his claim more valid than the claims of Utilitarianism?

In 'society 2', he has not proven that it is morally wrong to be exempt from punishment, whilst demanding the punishment of others. He has only pointed out that this form of morality has problems when incorporated into a legal system.

'Society 4' has pragmatic faults and not faults with morality. This is the same fallacy as I mentioned that the description of society 2 had. Pragmatism does not equal morality. For example, it might be practical to slaughter or castrate families in over-populated areas, but that does not make it a moral action.
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #31 - August 22, 2011, 04:08 PM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on August 22, 2011, 02:38 PM
strangedude.. great vids!

TheLeader... you also may be surprised at the number of ex muslims
who still dont drink, dont party, still dress modestly, and still have high
moral values. We just dont let religion dictate those things
to us any longer.

I'm not surprised that many ex-Muslims still have 'high moral values.' I just don't believe that the ideals are naturally apart of us - they are instilled in to us when we're socialised in society.
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #32 - August 22, 2011, 04:15 PM

Oh I disagree with that theleader.
I believe alot of human virtues are
innately within people.

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
Helen Keller
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #33 - August 22, 2011, 04:15 PM

You've misunderstood the reason why I presented those videos. I wanted to show how we can go about deriving models of morality using reason. Check out the philosophy of ethics if you want to explore model of morality on a deeper level.

It's best to present your counter-arguments to the video to the person who made it. But bear in mind I don't think the the creator is pompous enough to think he's solved the problem of deriving models of morality in a 15 minute video .

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #34 - August 22, 2011, 04:16 PM

Quote from: TheLeader on August 22, 2011, 04:08 PM
I'm not surprised that many ex-Muslims still have 'high moral values.' I just don't believe that the ideals are naturally apart of us - they are instilled in to us when we're socialised in society.

You don't believe in evolution?

http://www.livescience.com/4515-selfless-chimps-shed-light-evolution-altruism.html

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #35 - August 22, 2011, 04:22 PM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on August 22, 2011, 02:38 PM
strangedude.. great vids!

Glad you liked them. That dude evid3nc3 story of how he deconverted is amazing, especially when he shows how psychologically he began to break down after losing his faith.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #36 - August 22, 2011, 04:48 PM

Sorry to flood this thread with my posts, but here's a documentary on the selfish gene...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXkzuPwnafM&feature=related

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #37 - August 22, 2011, 06:09 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on August 22, 2011, 04:15 PM
You've misunderstood the reason why I presented those videos. I wanted to show how we can go about deriving models of morality using reason. Check out the philosophy of ethics if you want to explore model of morality on a deeper level.

It's best to present your counter-arguments to the video to the person who made it. But bear in mind I don't think the the creator is pompous enough to think he's solved the problem of deriving models of morality in a 15 minute video .

You presented the video, so I directed my counter arguments to you.

Quote from: strangestdude on August 22, 2011, 04:16 PM
You don't believe in evolution?

http://www.livescience.com/4515-selfless-chimps-shed-light-evolution-altruism.html

I believe in evolution, but I don't believe that altruism is an evolutionary characteristic; there is no conclusive evidence to support it - in fact the whole concept is largely based on conjecture.

Firstly, altruism does not aid the individual's survival - it aids another person's survival, so altruism will not become an evolutionary characteristic via natural selection. In reference to the study you posted: all 36 chimps had contact with humans who would feed and help them to survive, so a chimp helping someone else can be explained as simple replication of behaviour. A trait which all chimpanzees possess. A study of chimps with no human interaction prior to the study would have had some validity.
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #38 - August 22, 2011, 06:21 PM

Quote from: TheLeader on August 22, 2011, 04:08 PM
I just don't believe that the ideals are naturally apart of us - they are instilled in to us when we're socialised in society.

So ultimately morality comes from us because we are makers of society. We are innately moral creatures.

Problem solved.

Next case.

Little Fly, Thy summer's play
My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

I too dance and drink, and sing,
Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

Therefore I am a happy fly,
If I live or if I die.
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #39 - August 22, 2011, 06:26 PM

from the beginning, humans gathered in tribes, clans, communities,
no matter how great or how small, harmony dictates there be order
and guidelines for everyone to live in harmony together. Things
deemed as "taboo", right, wrong, or otherwise had to have a
consequence, good or bad, for actions that either helped, or hindered
and hurt other members of the community.

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
Helen Keller
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #40 - August 22, 2011, 06:27 PM

Theleader I can see where you're coming from- these are the exact same thoughts I've had.

Empathy and aid are natural and is occasionally seen in nature- every time there is some personal gain though- like the numerous stories of an animal adopting an unlikely child- there was a documentary recently about a lioness who adopted a baby gazelle (which is normally it's food/prey)- why? The show advertised as a miracle, but I thought about it and came to the conclusion that there must be a reason as this is clearly NOT normal, I mean, what would happen if instead of eating gazelles lions started to adopt them!? This is illogical. I reached the conclusion that perhaps the female lost a child- the mother/child instinct is natural- losing her baby would make her feel great loss and despair which the baby gazelle replaced.

There are many such tales where no human has interacted.

Why help others? To make yourself feel good because society admires and applauds people who give to others for no gain, when in fact there is great gain, respect from your peers- how many people give for nothing? Is there any unconditional love? Is any charity or kindness unconditional? The reality is the answer is no.

Giving to charity, saving people, this is a societal concept which has absolutely no logic- what will happen if we do in fact save the world, if we ensure no child dies needlessly from starvation? Then perhaps we should save the children then leave them to die when they pass a certain age? No? So we must save all people? Then what? What will happen if the birth rate continues as it is and we reduce the death rate so every person lives to a ripe old age and dies naturally? This is impossible, there aren't enough resources to sustain this.

The only logical way to stop these terrible sufferings is to ensure these children are never born to suffer, to stop or limit birth- perhaps we would be doing a better job if we donated money to provide food and water to these people laced with birth control?
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #41 - August 22, 2011, 06:41 PM

Quote from: Gladfly on August 22, 2011, 06:21 PM
So ultimately morality comes from us because we are makers of society. We are innately moral creatures.

Problem solved.

Next case.

That's like saying 'ultimatley a computer comes from us because we are the makers of it. Therefore we innatley build computers.'
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #42 - August 22, 2011, 07:05 PM

^ Not over 99% of us are computer/electric engineers, but over 99% of us live in a society / have an innate moral compass.

Quote from: King Tut on December 09, 2012, 06:28 PM
Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #43 - August 22, 2011, 07:17 PM

I disagree- the LACK of an innate moral compass is the problem society faces.

What is innately moral?

Not having sex with kids (paedophilia)? Well, before society imposed this it was quite common place
Not being incestuous- this again was normal before science realised the genetic dangers and outlawed this- in fact the monarchy and high society preferred incestuous bro/sis marriage to keep the bloodline pure which is why much of the royal family died out
Monogomay- most people will agree with monogomy yet most people have had more than 1 sex partner, and I imagine most people have at some point had more than 1 at the same time be it in an open relationship or as a secret affair
Murder- it is immoral to murder yet totally expected and applauded to kill people in war if they happen to be on the other side (so basically it's ok to kill people with different views sometimes )
Rape- one can see how rape is a animalistic (primal?) method for the lame ass males to force their genes into a female. In the animal kingdom rape is normal and it is the male that the femal acquires who is responsible for preventing it- so in fact rape is innate

What aspect of morality is innate? I would argue that there is none- morality is subjective.

Moving away from religion will remove superfluous ideas of morality that only aid to oppress people psychologically and creates more harm than good (such as morailty re sex)

Humans were once animals that followed instinct- we were the same as other animals where rape was acceptable, gender roles were clearly defined, etc. Human evolution has created confusion- we are not that any more, we aren't animals, we are moving further away from innate and towards extrinsic behaviour that is acquried through trial and error.
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #44 - August 22, 2011, 07:31 PM

Saffire... not necessarily. What about Matriarchal societies?
And I am speaking of ancient human culture/prehistory
archeological finds that indicate the "mother goddess" was
worshipped for a loooooooong time, and also evidence
that the shamans and spiritual leaders were women, and
highly valued members of their society.

EDIT: When my sister lived in Kampala Uganda, she told
me about a sect of witchcraft that would cut off men's
penises and testicles to use in their rituals. According to
her, this scared the crap out of many ugandan men lol.
Naturally, this sect were women lol!

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
Helen Keller
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #45 - August 22, 2011, 07:47 PM

Quote from: shilakijawani on August 22, 2011, 07:05 PM
^ Not over 99% of us are computer/electric engineers, but over 99% of us live in a society / have an innate moral compass.

Yes, but that 1% of us that are computer/electrical engineers do not innatley build computers - it is a skill that is learnt. Also this conversation is about whether morals are innate or not. If you're going to claim it is innate then provide evidence to substantiate your claim.
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #46 - August 22, 2011, 07:50 PM

Quote from: TheLeader on August 22, 2011, 06:09 PM
Firstly, altruism does not aid the individual's survival - it aids another person's survival, so altruism will not become an evolutionary characteristic via natural selection.

Altruism is a trait valuable to the survival of the species/genes, that's why we are inclined to care for our offspring/group. The reason why sex and companionship feels so good is so we are inclined to procreate - we are inclined to ensure the continuation of our genes/species, not just our individual survival.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism#Evolutionary_explanations

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #47 - August 22, 2011, 07:59 PM

Quote from: Saffire on August 22, 2011, 06:27 PM
Theleader I can see where you're coming from- these are the exact same thoughts I've had.

Empathy and aid are natural and is occasionally seen in nature- every time there is some personal gain though- like the numerous stories of an animal adopting an unlikely child- there was a documentary recently about a lioness who adopted a baby gazelle (which is normally it's food/prey)- why? The show advertised as a miracle, but I thought about it and came to the conclusion that there must be a reason as this is clearly NOT normal, I mean, what would happen if instead of eating gazelles lions started to adopt them!? This is illogical. I reached the conclusion that perhaps the female lost a child- the mother/child instinct is natural- losing her baby would make her feel great loss and despair which the baby gazelle replaced.

This is the most convincing argument for morality being innate that I've seen. Perhaps certain morals are innate such as child rearing, but I don't think this can be extrapolated to other concepts of morality such as rape, bestiality or theft. However, I am unsure as to whether an animal's actions can even be construed as being influenced by a moral compass - animals behave according to instinct afterall.
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #48 - August 22, 2011, 08:22 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on August 22, 2011, 07:50 PM
Altruism is a trait valuable to the survival of the species/genes, that's why we are inclined to care for our offspring/group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism#Evolutionary_explanations

Essentially the idea is that an organism acts in a manner that temporarily reduces its fitness while increasing another organism's fitness, with the expectation that the other organism will act in a similar manner at a later time. This is not a selfless action at all - it is done with the expectation of benefiting yourself. It is a rational bargaining tool; I fail to see the concept of 'right or wrong' come in to play at all.

Quote from: strangestdude on August 22, 2011, 07:50 PM
The reason why sex and companionship feels so good is so we are inclined to procreate - we are inclined to ensure the continuation of our genes/species, not just our individual survival.

I don't see how this relates to morality. Having sex pleasures urges that we have, but it isn't relevant to any moral compass we may or may not have.
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #49 - August 22, 2011, 11:40 PM

Welcome dude.

Guys-- here's a good old thread on 'objective morality': http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14393.0

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #50 - August 23, 2011, 12:01 AM

Quote from: TheLeader on August 22, 2011, 08:22 PM
This is not a selfless action at all - it is done with the expectation of benefiting yourself. It is a rational bargaining tool; I fail to see the concept of 'right or wrong' come in to play at all.

The 'rational bargaining tool/reciprocal altruism' is one aspect, kin selection is another, along with reciprocity, and Eusociality. I don't know why you only focused on reciprocal altruism?

So you understand that the inclination towards kind actions are explained by evolution, but you believe because it isn't completely 'selfless' it isn't moral. I think the problem is your definition of morality.

What is your definition of morality?

I've never known anyone help another human being and not feel good about it on some level, but I don't consider that immoral - nothing wrong with feeling good for helping someone.

The only people I've come across who believe that if you help another human being and derive any personal benefit from it, then you're immoral or 'not truly moral' are religious folk.

Maybe you're viewing morality from a religious perspective still? (ie. you shouldn't derive any personal satifisfaction or gain from helping other human beings)

Quote from: TheLeader on August 22, 2011, 08:22 PM
I don't see how this relates to morality. Having sex pleasures urges that we have, but it isn't relevant to any moral compass we may or may not have.

I wrote that to help you understand that the notion of 'survival of the fittest' isn't referring to individual survival - which you believed judging by your response. It is referring to traits within a species that ensure the survival of that species. Like the inclination to help other members of your species.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #51 - August 23, 2011, 12:17 AM

Quote from: TheLeader on August 22, 2011, 08:22 PM
Essentially the idea is that an organism acts in a manner that temporarily reduces its fitness while increasing another organism's fitness, with the expectation that the other organism will act in a similar manner at a later time. This is not a selfless action at all - it is done with the expectation of benefiting yourself. It is a rational bargaining tool; I fail to see the concept of 'right or wrong' come in to play at all.

So you only help people out of cold strategic consideration (boosting your public image, or obligating the recipient to return the favor)?
I sure as hell don't. I do it because it feels good. Why it feels good may be explained by our evolution as inter-dependent social species. Stable society drastically boosts survival chances of each member, so altruism developed in us to reinforce the group.

Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
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Re: Hi, I'm 'TheLeader'
Reply #52 - August 23, 2011, 07:05 AM

There's something called empathy.
Humans have it. At diff levels.

I guess you don't have much of it.

Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
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