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Theme Changer

 Topic: Gender is a social construct argh!

 (Read 25439 times)
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  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #120 - October 04, 2011, 01:36 AM

    I had thought that in ancient times, each sex had a very defined role that helped ensure the survival of the species. Cave men hunted. Cave women gathered food near the home and cared for the children. Brain areas may have been sharpened to enable each sex to carry out their jobs. Remember the hunter/gatherer phase was the longest phase in human history.

    as for differences between male and female brains

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704013604576246612976236624.html


    >>>>The brains of many animals, including humans, are significantly different for males and females of the species<<<<
    that's from wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans

    >>>>These discernible, measurable differences in behaviour have been imprinted long before external influences have had a chance to get to work. They reflect a basic difference in the newborn brain which we already know about -- the superior male efficiency in spatial ability, the greater female skill in speech."

    But now, after many careful controlled studies where environment and social learning were ruled out, scientists learned that there may exist a great deal of neurophysiological and anatomical differences between the brains of males and females.<<<<

    http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html

    http://www.mastersofhealthcare.com/blog/2009/10-big-differences-between-mens-and-womens-brains/


    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #121 - October 04, 2011, 04:27 AM

    FFS. No. Show me a study where anyone was able to correctly identify if the brain was male or female in every case without knowing beforehand. Show me a study of male and female brains that belonged to people who were not shaped by social constructs through their lives. IOW, first find humans that were raised without social constructs, pressures and expectations, then study if their brains are different, then you may have a case. As long as the brains you are studying are formed within societies that have gender norms and other norms, you have nothing but confirmation bias.


     Afro Afro Afro

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #122 - October 04, 2011, 05:21 AM



    Cheesy

    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #123 - October 04, 2011, 07:01 AM

    WOMEN ARE LIE SENT BY JEWS TO KILL US!

    "The words that oscillate between nonsense and supreme meaning are the oldest and truest." - C.G. Jung
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #124 - October 04, 2011, 07:15 AM

    Quote
    It is important to celebrate these differences and for the people in authority, whether they're men or women, to understand that, on average, women may bring different styles of thinking, different approaches, different skill sets to their job and should be hired for those reasons and not to fill any quota.


    ^I think that's important to highlight, women and men may have different thinking processes (NOTE: I AM TALKING GENERAL - BECAUSE SURPRISINGLY THE WORLD IS MADE OF MAJORITY AND MINORITY AND ITS IMPRACTICAL TO MENTION EVERY EXCEPTIONAL CASE ALL THE TIME) however it just means getting different angles on the same problem/situation, and creative solutions.


    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #125 - October 04, 2011, 07:24 AM

    Who mentioned jobs and quotas here?  Huh?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #126 - October 04, 2011, 07:35 AM

    Asbie it was from the first link devilsadvocate posted.

    @Thread:

    I have to say there is fine line between recognising and accepting that there are some differences between female and male, and then going to the point of mixing in social gender constructs. I think there are many social constructs set up for male/female behaviour to which many do conform.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #127 - October 04, 2011, 07:43 AM

    The brain is known to have plasticity so it's quite possible I think with training to strengthen certain areas of the brain responsible for particular outcomes.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #128 - October 04, 2011, 07:46 AM

    Okay, so you advocate having a mix of genders at a given workplace. Cool.

    Still how do you suggest that society go about recognizing and accepting differences between the sexes especially when you know that there's a minority for whom the socially normative gender constructs simply don't apply?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #129 - October 04, 2011, 07:54 AM

    Okay, so you advocate having a mix of genders at a given workplace. Cool.

    Still how do you suggest that society go about recognizing and accepting differences between the sexes especially when you know that there's a minority for whom the socially normative gender constructs simply don't apply?


    - I'll get back to you! Later today.

    Need to leave in an hour and I planned to get this reading done this morning.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #130 - October 04, 2011, 09:10 AM

    I have to say there is fine line between recognising and accepting that there are some differences between female and male, and then going to the point of mixing in social gender constructs. I think there are many social constructs set up for male/female behaviour to which many do conform.


    Yes, we conform because it's a social construct we grew up with. If we grew up with another social construct of gender, many will conform to it as well. This isn't a complicated or radical idea. You're saying there are differences between males and females and are trying to link them to biology, which is the exact mistake Westerners have done throughout the ages, only to discover that people in other cultures do not fit such conceptions of gender. How do Amazonian and many other Native warrior women, for example, fit into your biological paradigm? Women in said cultures have always been equal to men in the battlefield -- and I'm not talking about a small minority, I'm taking about it being the common practice.
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #131 - October 04, 2011, 02:38 PM


    Quote
    How do Amazonian and many other Native warrior women, for example, fit into your biological paradigm? Women in said cultures have always been equal to men in the battlefield -- and I'm not talking about a small minority, I'm taking about it being the common practice.


    And what great civilisation have they built up?
     



    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #132 - October 04, 2011, 02:42 PM

    I don't understand the reluctance that people have in accepting that male and female humans have different brains in size and structure.

    I think there is a of evidence that primates have different brains depending on their sex, who have no cultural socialisation so why not humans?

    I think the fact that women are biologically capable of giving birth and men not would account for some difference.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #133 - October 04, 2011, 02:53 PM

    Hmm, you'd think the females being best as mothers...looking out for their young etc would be the ones to pass on their genes more effectively....so that care, attention to the child's behaviour etc are female qualities that would survive, whereas the males didn't require that, since they were out hunting the certain characteristics that's required for survival 'out in the field' would have survived through the generations for men.

    Depends on the exact dynamics of life during the hunter/gather period to be honest, which I haven't looked into much.


    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #134 - October 04, 2011, 02:57 PM

    How do Amazonian and many other Native warrior women, for example, fit into your biological paradigm? Women in said cultures have always been equal to men in the battlefield -- and I'm not talking about a small minority, I'm taking about it being the common practice.


    The Amazons were a myth. There's no concrete historical evidence they ever actually existed.

    fuck you
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #135 - October 04, 2011, 03:03 PM

    Forget the Amazons. Smiley I've done an entire course on Native American women and there was not a single reading that argued Native women fit the gender norms as defined by the colonizers. In fact, many Native societies are matriarchal and matrilineal.
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #136 - October 04, 2011, 03:07 PM

    Well matrilineal doesn't necessarily mean much, can you show me which of these societies were matriarchal and how exactly?

    fuck you
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #137 - October 04, 2011, 03:07 PM

    Okay, so you advocate having a mix of genders at a given workplace. Cool.

    Still how do you suggest that society go about recognizing and accepting differences between the sexes especially when you know that there's a minority for whom the socially normative gender constructs simply don't apply?



    Well, the more you expose that there exists these different people with different lifestyles/'gender benders' etc the less 'taboo' it becomes and people accept there are others out there that have different lifestyes... :S

    You do realise that acceptance of differences doesn't mean everybody else has to 'comply' or 'try out' this different style, just because it exists. It's clearly up to individuals.


    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #138 - October 04, 2011, 03:08 PM

    Hmm, you'd think the females being best as mothers...looking out for their young etc would be the ones to pass on their genes more effectively....so that care, attention to the child's behaviour etc are female qualities that would survive, whereas the males didn't require that, since they were out hunting the certain characteristics that's required for survival 'out in the field' would have survived through the generations for men.

    Depends on the exact dynamics of life during the hunter/gather period to be honest, which I haven't looked into much.



    What does life thousands of years ago have anything to do with life today? Evolution takes many shapes, and species adopt in many ways. The reason people who we previously thought don't fit the evolution paradigm exist is because they actually fit and we just couldn't see it, eg. "beta-males" and gay people. Otherwise they wouldn't have continued to exist in the first place.

    http://whiskeys-place.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-beta-male-exists.html
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #139 - October 04, 2011, 03:19 PM

    Quote
    Hunter-gatherers

    One of the most studied cases of hunter-gatherers are the San (!Kung) of Kalahari desert in Botswana and Namibia. They are egalitarian to the extreme. No aggressive behaviour, exercise of power, or accumulation of wealth are tolerated. Autonomy of individuals is highly valued. Like all aboriginal people, their culture and traditional economy are threatened by the global economy and local government's "development" efforts. About their fight for survival see for example:

        http://www.survival-international.org/news.htm
        http://www.firstpeoplesworldwide.org/

    Examples of very similar cases are the Hadza in Tanzania, the Huaorani and the Cuiva in South America, the Chukchi of Siberia, the Nayaka, Hill Pandaram , Paliyan, and the Andaman Onge in India, the Agta and Batak in Philippines, the Batek in Malaysia, the Pintupi, Warlpiri and Cape York peoples in Australia. (See the Cambridge encyclopedia of hunters and gatherers. Cambridge University Press. 1999)

    Quote
    Mexico: Tehuantepec Zapotec

    The Handbook of Middle American Indians, vol 7 refers to "the notorious power of isthmus Zapotec women" who call themselves Tehuanas. Women are heads of households, control the purse and represent the community to outsiders. Only women go to the market. "In the isthmus bantering in the marketplace is the most notorious pastime of Tehuanas, and one which causes much laughter, especially if the object of fun is a man." The writer is offended by use of nicknames like crabfoot, turtle, city woman, marimba teeth, little pig, big testicles.
    There is strong solidarity among all the women, and elders are highly respected. The majority of native curers are women. There are some clues that the culture was already strongly matrifocal before the Spaniards arrived. In 1553 Princess Magdalena, the daughter of the ruler Cosijopii, donated to the Dominicans "the salt beds of Tehuantepec, her fields, a fruit orchard half a league in length, her recreational baths consisting of crystal springs which water the orchard." At that time, Magdalena's father and two brothers were still living. During the Tehuantepecan Insurrection 1660, women were reported to take actively part.

    Juchitán women in 2005, photo by Ricardo Coler.

    North America: Cherokee

    The Cherokee were matrilineal with a complex society. Cherokee women had many rights and privileges other than domestic duties. Not only did married women own property, such as homes, horses, cattle and fields of growing crops and fruit trees, but they also participated in both the fighting of wars and the Council of War, and sat with the Civil Council of Peace. Lineage was traced through the women's clan.

    The Women's Council was influential having for example power over captives' lives.Their female warrior chief had the title of Beloved woman. The last Beloved woman, Ghighau, Nancy Ward, resigned her office in 1817. She had earned her title by taking the weapons of her deceased husband and participating into a battle. She was the head Beloved Woman of Chota, the oldest, "mother" town of Cherokee, and in this position she tried to negotiate and maintain peace with the whites, which proved impossible. It took 170 years before the Cherokee again had a female supreme chief, Wilma Mankiller, who was elected in 1987.

    Canada: Innu (Montagnais)

    The Innu of St. Lawrence Valley who were called Montagnais-Naskapi by the missionaries caused head-aches to the Jesuits. Let brother Fr. Paul Le Jeune report of his troubles: "the women have great power.. A man may promise you something and if he does not keep his promise, he thinks he is sufficiently excused when he tells you that his wife did not wish him to do it." "Men leave the arrangement of the household to the women, without interfering them; they cut and decide to give away as they please without making the husband angry. I have never seen my host ask a giddy young woman that he had with him what became of the provisions, although they were disappearing very fast." "They endure in the least those who seem desirous of assuming superiority over the others, and place all virtue in certain gentleness or apathy." "They imagine that they ought by right of birth, to enjoy the liberty of wild ass colts, rendering no homage to anyone whatsoever, except when they like. They have reproached me a hundred of times because we fear our Captains, while they laugh at and make sport of theirs. All the authority of their chief is in his tongue's end, for he is powerful insofar as he is eloquent; and even if he kills himself talking and haranguing, he will not be obeyed unless he pleases the Savages."

    TOP

    North America: The Iroquois and Huron

    The Iroquois consisted of five groups whose own collective name was Haudenosaunee (= the Longhouse). "In each clan, each individual and distinct matrilineage ohwachira has one person who acts as representative for it. The women choose them and are often in this position themselves." The bestowal of an office was not irrevocable; the women retained the right to replace a leader who failed to meet their expectations. One of the matrons in each ohwachira presided over her kin group and with counterparts from other longhouses constituted the female leadership of a clan segment.

    One could see a gender division of political labor: women were dominant within the village and its surrounding fields while men dealt with the outside world.
    But in fact, the Iroquois lived in a democratic near-anarchy which a late 17th century Mohawk leader summarized to the officials at Albany: "Brethren you know that we have no forcing rules or laws amongst us." (List of sources about North America)

    North American Southwest: The Pueblo, Hopi and Zuni

    These societies are characterized by high status and economic independence of women, and matrilineal and matrilocal residence.

    Pueblo: "Power among tribal people is not perceived as political or economic, though status and material possessions can and often do derive from it. Power is conceived of as being supernatural and paranormal. It is a matter of spirit involvement and destiny. Woman's power comes automatically, by virtue of her femaleness, her natural and necessary fecundity, and her personal acquaintance with blood." Paula Gunn Allen
    Zuni: Men need inititation ceremonies into religion but women initiate themselves through the sacredness centered in their bodies: through menstruation and childbirth they apprehended the mysteries of life and death at their source. The Zuni refer to earth as mother, corn plants as her children and game animals as fathers. They believed that they lived in the center of the world.

    "Navajo culture, which is matriarchal, gives women a sense of power and independence." "In Navajo religion and culture, there is an emphasis on how you relate to everything around you. Everything has to be measured, weighed and harmonious. We call it nizhoni - walking in beauty." Dr Lori Cupp

    And many more examples of societies with women in power here: http://www.saunalahti.fi/penelope/Feminism/matrifoc.html
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #140 - October 04, 2011, 03:22 PM

    Thanks, though the primitive communism of the Bushmen and other hunter-gatherer tribes I'm not sure directly relates to the topic at hand.

    fuck you
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #141 - October 04, 2011, 03:26 PM

    I posted it in response to stardust.
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #142 - October 04, 2011, 03:45 PM

    Oh, nvm then.

    fuck you
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #143 - October 05, 2011, 12:21 AM


    Well, the more you expose that there exists these different people with different lifestyles/'gender benders' etc the less 'taboo' it becomes and people accept there are others out there that have different lifestyes... :S

    You do realise that acceptance of differences doesn't mean everybody else has to 'comply' or 'try out' this different style, just because it exists. It's clearly up to individuals.




    Ok, but what does it mean to "recognize and accept" these differences. Which differences, and how?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
     Reply #144 - October 06, 2011, 07:04 PM

    1. There are notable differences between males and females among animals in nature, even insects. These are not presumably the product of socialization.

    Nope.
    That's not universally true.

    There are species where sex determination is entirely based on the environment, since they are genetically the same.
    There are even some species where the same individual changes sex over time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determination_system

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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