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Theme Changer

 Topic: Muhammad's scribes

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  • Muhammad's scribes
     OP - July 27, 2012, 02:36 PM

    I have often wondered about the compilation of the Koran. Muslim speakers will often claim that it is so beautiful that it has to come from God, but when you ask them to pinpoint specific verses that are especially beautiful to them they are usually unable to identify any. Which either means that all verses are equally beautiful to them, or they are simply regurgitating stuff they have been told and have not actually been emotionally moved by any of it themselves.
     
    Apparently Muhammad had something like 42 scribes that would write down his Koran recitations for him. These guys were probably assembled from some of the greatest poets of the various tribes of Arabia. I was reading nj7's website, he discusses this guy called Hassan ibn Thabit who was one of Mo's scribes but was also a poet in the Pre-Islamic Age and wrote a poem that mirrors the Dhu'l Qarnayn story from the Koran. It seems like far too much of a coincidence that his pre-Islamic poetry happens to be on the exact same subject as a part of the Koran. I get the feeling that some of these "scribes" were in on the lie. Otherwise why would he need so many scribes? Obviously these guys were re-wording Mo's recitations and coming up with more poetic styles, and even adding in their own stories, or telling Mo their stories which he would then retell slightly differently and claim it came from God.

    Anyway I started doing a little more research on this and discovered that the history records have preserved the story of one of Mo's scribe who was aware of Mo's big lie and decided to go Mecca and tell all the Meccans that Mo was making up the Koran as he went along, his name was Abdullah ibn Abi Sarh, and there is a youtube video about him here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-3iSi2V3UE

    When Mo conquered Mecca he wanted this guy killed. Obviously this was to silence him, otherwise why else would you need to kill your former scribe?

    I am pretty sure that this story is not in a "Sahih" hadith, but who cares! Obviously devout Muslims are not going to be carefully preserving stories that make Mo look like a liar, history is of course written by the winners.

    Anyway, what do other people here know about Mo's various scribes?
  • Re: Muhammad's scribes
     Reply #1 - July 27, 2012, 07:25 PM

    Muhammad didn't kill him. Uthman told Muhammad to keep him alive (ibn Sarh converted back to Islam before the conquest of mecca) and he later became the governor of Egypt... Please, research before you put out lies.
  • Re: Muhammad's scribes
     Reply #2 - July 27, 2012, 07:37 PM

    Yep, you are right that he was not killed according to Ibn Hisham. He did indeed escape. I have modified the text in the original post to reflect this.

    Can you provide a reference that he converted back to Islam before the conquest and that he later became governor of Egypt?
  • Re: Muhammad's scribes
     Reply #3 - July 28, 2012, 09:42 AM

    The standard Muslim response from the islamic-awareness site is that Abi Sarh converted back to Islam before the conquest of Mecca (i.e. under his own free will), and thus he couldn't really have doubted Muhammad's "revelation".

    I looked into this and searched some hadiths after it came up on the jinn and tonic show in April.

    The claim is based on al-Tabari's Tafsir on 9:63, which just says that he converted back to Islam before the conquest of Mecca.

    However, al-Tabari's History vol IX p.148 in the English translation says:

    Quote
    Abdallah b.Sa`d b. Abi Sarh used to write for him. He apostatized from Islam and later returned to Islam on the day of the conquest of Mecca.


    And see this hadith:

    Quote
    Narrated Sa'd: On the day when Mecca was conquered, the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) gave protection to the People except four men and two women and he named them. Ibn AbuSarh was one of them. He then narrated the tradition. He said: Ibn AbuSarh hid himself with Uthman ibn Affan. When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called the people to take the oath of allegiance, he brought him and made him stand before the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Apostle of Allah, receive the oath of allegiance from him. He raised his head and looked at him thrice, denying him every time. After the third time he received his oath. He then turned to his Companions and said: Is not there any intelligent man among you who would stand to this (man) when he saw me desisting from receiving the oath of allegiance, and kill him? They replied: We do not know, Apostle of Allah, what lies in your heart; did you not give us an hint with your eye? He said: It is not proper for a Prophet to have a treacherous eye.

    Sunan Abu Hawud book 14 number 2677

    So it looks a lot like he "returned to Islam" out of fear of execution! It certainly doesn't look like he did so free from fear and pressure. Luckily he had a powerful foster brother (Uthman) to look out for him and later make him Governor of Egypt!
  • Re: Muhammad's scribes
     Reply #4 - July 29, 2012, 12:36 PM

    Another famous scribe is Muawiya Ibn Abu Suffian, who the Sunnis revered as "Khatibul Wahy" though Shias in general hated him and his progeny.

  • Re: Muhammad's scribes
     Reply #5 - July 29, 2012, 01:49 PM

    Quote
    or they are simply regurgitating stuff they have been told and have not actually been emotionally moved by any of it themselves.


    This is should be very close to the truth for most of them.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
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