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 Topic: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims

 (Read 15597 times)
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  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #30 - October 29, 2012, 01:57 AM

    I'd go along with that analysis broadly speaking allat.

    I'm just interested in this aspect of radical conservatism.

    That there is a fixed ideal towards which society and individuals should orientate themselves.

    And that this is actually a pathology - the primacy of a divine judgment and punishment for questioning this - makes it incredibly difficult to even start to reform.

    This is such a force multiplier it goes beyond conservatism. Its more than being ultra-conservative. Its extreme in as much as it doesn't even allow for the slightest acknowledgment of progression in any sphere.

    You know allat, at some point the liberal secular consensus has become, or will become this century, the tradition to be defended - and those defenders will be conserving these ideas and their institutional, social continuation.

    That's what I mean by liberal conservatism.


    You've pointed out the basic contradiction of liberalism there. At what point does our defence of "liberal" values (i.e. equality, egalitarianism, freedom of thought, speech etc.) become the things towards which we are "conservative"? I think it's a good question and it is one that some Muslims and other religious apologists will point to also, when we bring up the radical conservatism of their traditional scriptures. They say that our ideas of liberalism, secularism and human rights are becoming points of orientation that we are being conservative around.

    I think it's problematic at that point to divide the world into liberal and conservative. We are all both, to various extents. Most people have elements of both types of thinking about the world. I think at this point it is better to talk about the specifics of what we mean by "liberalism" or "conservatism" like what you are doing. I.e. to speak about the suffering that religion causes, and the progressive strains that are in religions too. The issue of the Quran being the central orienting point is still unresolved for Muslims because even if we (secularists and some Muslims too) value things like equality, freedom etc., those are not bound in time and text to a particular part of human history. Those are changeable, as we learn more. E.g. transgender people, disabled people, etc. are starting to get recognition and legal protections in ways that never happened before in human history. Thus even if we want to call it "liberal conservatism" (which I wouldn't call it that since it still plays up the value of conservatism i.e. of fearing change) it is still a form of social-progressivism not REGRESSIVISM. I think better terms are progressive and regressive, personally, than liberal or conservative which are themselves becoming outdated.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #31 - October 29, 2012, 02:01 AM

    Quote
    REGRESSIVISM


    See, that is it, that is the word I was struggling to find.

    This is a much more accurate word to describe what we're talking about. Well done!

    Even more accurate to call it Fixed Regressivism.

    And yes - you are absolutely correct about the liberal / conservative paradox. I think liberal / conservative can still be useful touchstone words for working through this thicket though. Your formula of thinking in terms of progressive / regressive is helpful and probably long term most helpful. But we do still work in certain streams of thinking and traditions of ideas and whilst they are always subject to re-definition, the liberal / conservative idea and tension is a way of describing this on the road to the future.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #32 - October 29, 2012, 02:08 AM

    This is one of the reasons given for conversions into Islam (of women in particular) by this Cambridge study.


    Somebody in Cambridge should do a study on the correlation between conversion to Islam and gullibility.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #33 - October 29, 2012, 02:09 AM

    And yes - you are absolutely correct about the liberal / conservative paradox. We need to think this through - away from the sectarian reflexes of political affiliations.


    Most definitely. Politicians and their parties want us to oversimplify our values and views, but in truth, most people are not 100% liberal or conservative... there are nuances. E.g. today's American conservatives are actually classical economic liberals (aka today's neoliberals). And today's actual liberals are much more economically and ecologically conservative. I.e. American republicans favour a liberal marketplace with little to no regulation or social contract between people, a kind of anarchic social darwinian marketplace. Today's democrats tend to favour a more evenly keeled space where the maximum number of people have the opportunity to have a good life, which requires some fine-tuning from regulatory bodies to disallow a small minority from exploiting others. So today's conservatives are actually economic liberals and today's liberals are actually economic conservatives. They are opposite in social issues though, usually (i.e. republicans tend to also be socially conservative and democrats tend to be socially liberal).

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #34 - October 29, 2012, 02:11 AM


    Excellent summary. And these borders and definitions will shift in the future too, as they have in the past ^^^

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #35 - October 29, 2012, 02:14 AM

    Yeah true. They tend to shift quite a lot over a few generations.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #36 - October 29, 2012, 02:36 AM

    For me, tradition suggests formation of ways - which meant that it was formed and shaped itself in the past - it came out of something - it had some value and hence was useful in some way. Conservatism sees this formation as gradual and cautious.

    So even in conservatism there is an inherent acceptance of change. This impulse believes change should be contingent and slow and subject to testing.

    A gardening analogy from a gardener...

    In my gardens I only use plants found in nature, plants that have, over time, evolved, adapted and hybridised, that are at once ever-changing and eternal.

    They also tend to be free of the aesthetic, structural and genetic flaws of plants hybridised by man - man whose arrogance and impatience tempt him to think he knows better than nature.

    At the other end of the spectrum are those (often in conservation bodies) who will allow no change, forgetting that nature itself IS change. Thus no beech trees or English oaks (Quercus robur) are to be allowed in West Wales.

    The parallels with different strands of political and religious thought are so obvious that I won't insult anyone's intelligence by flagging them up.
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #37 - October 29, 2012, 08:02 AM

    It's a shame they decided against it and with such a ridiculous excuse - ie they're afraid of the reaction from muslims- it's what I got from that response.

    @Allat& Billy's flow of conversation:

    I think most of society want a black and white picture of the world, even though they may not actively say so, but the desire and way of thinking is there since it, again, reflects stability - the easy route, than to accept that life, as is evolution, is a messy thing with lack of control and can only be guided as best as possible and hope for the best outcome and if not; continue to modify to improve.

    ^It's the trial and error form of learning, whilst the education system here heavily focuses on embedding a 'win/lose' mentality in people and a lot of us reinforce that in each other throughout our lives in varying ways. You either are a winner or a failure and not someone, as an individual, who has learnt and grown through experience.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #38 - October 29, 2012, 12:14 PM

    Quote
    the easy route, than to accept that life, as is evolution, is a messy thing with lack of control and can only be guided as best as possible and hope for the best outcome and if not; continue to modify to improve.


    Yes, perfectly said - and societies, cultures or communities that don't allow this flexibility are doomed.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #39 - October 29, 2012, 11:45 PM

    Back to the original story of this thread... here's the latest: a statement from the atheist society to the Student Union.
    http://lsesu.com/news/article/humanist/LSESU-denies-ex-Muslims-a-safe-space/

    Quote
    we feel that it is not within the remit of the SU or of the SU Activities Committee to approve name changes of existing LSESU societies, as long as they are not harmful.


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #40 - October 29, 2012, 11:48 PM

    By fuck, that page background is atrocious. Bends my head and makes the whole article look skewed.

    ETA: good response, though.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #41 - November 01, 2012, 05:28 PM

    Sundas Hoorain comments on the ongoing shambles that is LSESU, who last week refused to allow a society to include the term "Ex-Muslim" in their name.

    "It is indeed ironic that shortly following my post about the erasure from public consciousness ex-muslims face in the world in general and in Britain in particular, that the LSESU writes to us saying that we the ex-muslims are not allowed to be open about our identity! The gall, the barefaced audacity of this claim is so deeply offensive that one has to take a minute and say huh?!? Is this for real? The next reaction is, how dare you? How dare you tell us what we can and cannot affiliate ourselves with? How dare you tell us what we can or cannot call ourselves? How dare you tell us to remain hidden, invisible, oppressed and repressed? How dare you!

    I will add that they were sent an email by our Ex-Muslim Affairs officer, saying he can meet with them any time to answer any questions. They did not even bother responding to him. They did not even bother speaking to a single ex-Muslim. What gives them the right to impose what in their view we should or should not do? What in their view our political and religious stances can be? The last time I checked this was Britain, and this was the LSE! This is that age old argument I always heard in Pakistan, keep your head down, don’t ask for trouble. If someone threatens, hurts or kills you for expressing an opinion, it is your fault, YOU were asking for trouble. I for one find this unacceptable behaviour from a student based organisation. We are supposed to be open, engage with everyone from all backgrounds and opinions. We are supposed to debate, discuss and discover, not silence, censor and oppress! Unfortunately, the SU at LSE has become an instrument in furthering the oppression we the ex-Muslims face. Who are they to decide what risks we are allowed to take in the political or religious positions we espouse?

    As Alex very aptly put in his post here, “Are ex-Muslims endangered by joining student bodies which acknowledge their existence? If they are, surely that’s still up to them?”  and as Hamant said on the SU’s response “If they’re in danger, then punish the people who put them in danger, not the group trying to help them out. This seems like a hasty, poor decision by the Union.”

    We in the Ex-Muslim community consider ourselves the new gay community in its nascent stages. Most of us are still in the closet, and those who come out, do so at immense risks. We very similarly risk being rejected by everyone we know and love, to be seen differently because we dared express who we are. Will this SU have said to the gay community that do not call your society the LGBT society? In all likelihood, they would have told them to establish a generic society which does not make visible that they are homosexual or transgender. They would have kicked them back deeper in the closet, like they seem to be doing to us. I don’t know about you, but I am deeply offended to my core. I expected better. The Ex-Muslims deserve better. Do we not have equal rights on our own campus? Do we not get to express our identity like any other student?"

    http://heresyclub.com/2012/11/exmuslims-return-to-your-closets/
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #42 - November 01, 2012, 08:03 PM

     grin12 The student union are so going to regret this. I can see it already.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #43 - November 01, 2012, 10:27 PM

    Sundas Hoorain comments on the ongoing shambles that is LSESU, who last week refused to allow a society to include the term "Ex-Muslim" in their name.

    "It is indeed ironic that shortly following my post about the erasure from public consciousness ex-muslims face in the world in general and in Britain in particular, that the LSESU writes to us saying that we the ex-muslims are not allowed to be open about our identity! The gall, the barefaced audacity of this claim is so deeply offensive that one has to take a minute and say huh?!? Is this for real? The next reaction is, how dare you? How dare you tell us what we can and cannot affiliate ourselves with? How dare you tell us what we can or cannot call ourselves? How dare you tell us to remain hidden, invisible, oppressed and repressed? How dare you!

    I will add that they were sent an email by our Ex-Muslim Affairs officer, saying he can meet with them any time to answer any questions. They did not even bother responding to him. They did not even bother speaking to a single ex-Muslim. What gives them the right to impose what in their view we should or should not do? What in their view our political and religious stances can be? The last time I checked this was Britain, and this was the LSE! This is that age old argument I always heard in Pakistan, keep your head down, don’t ask for trouble. If someone threatens, hurts or kills you for expressing an opinion, it is your fault, YOU were asking for trouble. I for one find this unacceptable behaviour from a student based organisation. We are supposed to be open, engage with everyone from all backgrounds and opinions. We are supposed to debate, discuss and discover, not silence, censor and oppress! Unfortunately, the SU at LSE has become an instrument in furthering the oppression we the ex-Muslims face. Who are they to decide what risks we are allowed to take in the political or religious positions we espouse?

    As Alex very aptly put in his post here, “Are ex-Muslims endangered by joining student bodies which acknowledge their existence? If they are, surely that’s still up to them?”  and as Hamant said on the SU’s response “If they’re in danger, then punish the people who put them in danger, not the group trying to help them out. This seems like a hasty, poor decision by the Union.”

    We in the Ex-Muslim community consider ourselves the new gay community in its nascent stages. Most of us are still in the closet, and those who come out, do so at immense risks. We very similarly risk being rejected by everyone we know and love, to be seen differently because we dared express who we are. Will this SU have said to the gay community that do not call your society the LGBT society? In all likelihood, they would have told them to establish a generic society which does not make visible that they are homosexual or transgender. They would have kicked them back deeper in the closet, like they seem to be doing to us. I don’t know about you, but I am deeply offended to my core. I expected better. The Ex-Muslims deserve better. Do we not have equal rights on our own campus? Do we not get to express our identity like any other student?"

    http://heresyclub.com/2012/11/exmuslims-return-to-your-closets/


    Very gutsy lady, well done on her.
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #44 - November 02, 2012, 01:18 AM

    grin12 The student union are so going to regret this. I can see it already.

    Yup!
  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #45 - November 02, 2012, 02:50 PM

    Sundas is fierce.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: University student union atheist society name changes to include ex-Muslims
     Reply #46 - November 02, 2012, 07:46 PM

    If she had the union nongs in the same room, they'd all be taking an exceptionally strong interest in their own shoes.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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