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 Topic: Why do Muslims get offended?

 (Read 5536 times)
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  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     OP - January 11, 2014, 11:54 PM



    Why do Muslims get offended?


    Why do some Muslims get offended when people criticize their Prophet’s actions or make fun of him? I think answering this question needs a broader look at why anybody gets offended for anything.

    I think getting offended is related to expecting respect. If a person is disrespected, then he gets offended.

    One problem with this way of thinking is that people are often wrong in their interpretations of other people’s actions and intentions. It’s because we’re all fallible. And a lot of people are not familiar with the idea of checking for other possible interpretations and critically questioning them as a means of avoiding "jumping to conclusions.”

    Now when somebody gets offended, he thinks he's been disrespected, and it’s possible he misinterpreted. So this raises the question: Why did he get offended even before checking his interpretation for accuracy? I mean, why jump to conclusions? In other words, why act on a theory that you haven’t even checked for accuracy? The ‘theory' is his interpretation, and 'checking for accuracy’ means brainstorming other possible interpretations and criticizing them with the goal of ruling out all but one — the correct interpretation.

    One common first interpretation that people make is that someone wants to hurt them, or to make them lose in some way. But this is a bad way to think about people’s actions because some people don’t want to hurt anyone or make anyone lose anything. So that means that assuming that there is malicious intent is a mistake because it ignores all the cases where there isn’t malicious intent.

    This way of thinking, of assuming that there is always malicious intent, sees human interactions as necessarily win/lose. But this is a mistake. It’s entirely possible, and desirable, for any human interaction to be win/win, for everybody to get what they want and nobody loses anything they want. There is no law of nature preventing it from happening.

    So the better way to think about human interactions is as win/win situations, where the people involved share the same primary goal, of everybody winning.

    Now it is true that sometimes a person is trying to make you lose something, or otherwise hurt you, so it’s important to try to look out for this as a means of protecting yourself from harm.


    Criticism doesn't mean personal attacks

    One common misinterpretation people make is to treat a criticism of an idea or an action as a personal attack. A criticism is an explanation of a flaw in an idea. Criticizing the idea does not make the holder of the idea lose anything. In fact, criticism helps a person go from wrong to right. It helps him change his mind. It helps him find the truth, which is a great thing. So why perceive it as an attack? The person loses nothing. He only stands to gain.

    So consider a situation where you're presented with a criticism of your idea. If you agree with it, you stand to gain the truth, and if you disagree with it you stand to lose nothing. So with criticism, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose. So giving criticism is win/win.

    Some common responses people make to criticism is to say "that hurt my feelings," "I'm offended by that," and "that's insulting!" These people respond in this way as a means of communicating that the other person is wrong. But that's not a valid argument -- it's not objective. A person's feelings can't be used to judge the truth. What's needed is an explanation, one that doesn't depend on a person's feelings. More importantly, if the truth hurts your feelings, why don't you change your feelings instead of expecting me to hide the truth?


    And personal attacks are not criticism

    Now some people mistake personal attacks for criticism. But calling somebody stupid because he believes an idea does not constitute a criticism. It’s not an explanation of a flaw in an idea. It’s an attack on the holder of the idea. And it’s designed for only one thing, to hurt. People who make personal attacks instead of arguments see interactions as win/lose. And this is where the idea of respect comes in. The personal attacks are about disrespecting the person. But why would anybody want to do that? What’s the point? What problem does it solve?

    People who see the world as a series of win/lose situations also see the world in terms of status. They think that everybody has a certain amount of status, and getting more is something they want. So when they disrespect another person, they are increasing their own status while necessarily decreasing the other person’s status, hence win/lose.

    The rest of us, who see the world as a series of win/win situations, see the world in terms of truth. We are truth-seekers instead of status-seekers.


    Truth-seeking vs Status-seeking

    To get a better understanding of the difference between truth-seeking and status-seeking, let's consider how they differ in the way they work. Status-based thinking means judging ideas by figuring out how much status the ideas have. Alternatively, truth-based thinking means judging ideas by merit.

    To be clear, people who have the truth/merit-based philosophy still might get offended, but it’s because they haven't yet resolved the conflicts between their philosophy and their attitude. He has triggers and habits that he created before he learned his advanced philosophy and it’s going to take a serious and sustained effort to fix them, to integrate his reason with this emotion, to integrate his mind.[1]

    The status-based attitude is one that is shared by many cultures. In gang culture, individuals each have an amount of status that they intend to keep. For this reason, if a gang member perceives that somebody has disrespected him, he sees this as his status being decreased while the other guy’s status increased. And in an effort to regain his status, he may retaliate with physical violence. Another example of this is tribal cultures. In tribes, and this is true for gangs too, an individual’s status is partly determined by how much status his tribe has. For this reason, if a tribesman perceives that somebody has disrespected a member of his tribe, he sees this as his own status being decreased because he sees his tribe’s status as being decreased.

    What's interesting about the status-based-respect idea is that it denies that respect has to be earned. A person thinking like this may be in the wrong, and know it, and still demand to be treated as though he is in the right. Street thugs do it when they violently demand respect. Authoritative parents do it when they say 'Don't argue with me' to their kids. Some girlfriends do it when they expect their boyfriends to side with them in social situations even when they are in the wrong.

    Another example of the status-based attitude is when somebody gets offended for thinking that a family member of his has been disrespected. They see it as their status being lowered since their family name’s status has been lowered.

    Now imagine a person with a status-seeking attitude who thinks that the king of his tribe (like Prophet Mohamed) has been disrespected. He would find this more offensive than anything else.


    Static ideas means static political ideas

    The status-based attitude rears it’s ugly head in people’s politics too. These people align themselves politically by their tribal origin (status), rather than by their ideas (merit). It’s ugly because it’s not based on the truth. And because it means the person is unwilling to consider changing his mind about his politics -- because you can’t change your tribal origin.

    Judging ideas by status means that if you find out that you’re wrong, you’re going to deny it and claim that you’re right, and demand respect too. This way of thinking means no possibility of changing your political affiliation even if you were given devastating criticism of your political ideas.


    Rational people

    Alternatively, judging ideas by merit means that if you find out that you’re wrong, you’re willing to change your mind. This way of thinking means the possibility of changing your political affiliation.

    Another way to describe the truth-seeking attitude is to describe the people who have it, rational people. As Elliot Temple said:
    Quote
    Rational people are systems of ideas that can temporarily remove any one idea in the system without losing identity. We can remain functional without any one idea. This means we can update or replace it. And in fact we can often change a lot of ideas at once (how many depends in part on which).

    To criticize one idea is not to criticize my rationality, or my ability to create knowledge, or my ability to make progress. It doesn't criticize what makes me human, nor anything permanent about me. So I have no reason to mind it. Either I will decide it is correct, and change (and if I don't understand how to change, then no one has reason to fault me for not changing yet), or decide it is incorrect and learn something from considering it.

    The way ideas die in our place is that we change ourselves, while retaining our identity (i.e., we don't die), but the idea gets abandoned and does die.


    So a rational person sees criticism as win/win because it's part of his truth-seeking attitude. So when he gets quality criticism of his ideas, actions, or feelings, he doesn't interpret it as a personal attack and instead he tries to find out if the criticism is correct in order to try to extract value from it. He sees criticism as a good thing because he knows that criticism leads to further evolution of his knowledge. He sees criticism as necessary to improve himself. So he willingly seeks it out and enjoys thinking about it.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [1] For more on how to integrate your mind, consider reading these essays:

    - Emotions, by Elliot Temple [link: http://fallibleideas.com/emotions]
    - Psycho-epistemology, by Elliot Temple [link: http://curi.us/1257-xvi]
    - Psycho-epistemology, by me [link: http://ramirustom.blogspot.com/2012/09/psychology.html]
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #1 - January 12, 2014, 01:16 AM

    [i'm writing a book on islam. this is one of the essays. any criticism (honest feedback) is appreciated.]

    Why do Muslims get offended?


    Why do some Muslims get offended when people criticize their Prophet’s actions or make fun of him? I think answering this question needs a broader look at why anybody gets offended for anything.

    ......................

    Good stuff Rami  Good Stuff.. but why put that heading ?  when you are looking at the issue in a boarder sense  "why anybody gets offended for anything."

    why not put that as heading?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #2 - January 12, 2014, 05:43 AM

    Is this about a book you're writing?
    Or are you trying to convince yourself or some one else of something?
    Quite honestly I didn't finish reading it because it seems kind of circular and general.
    There is no situational examples of what you're trying to say. There are no charts of data collected that people tend to be so emotionally immature that they jump to conclusions as a life practise.  Or are you talking about a trait in a certain ago group or educational background or lack there of or if this jumping to conclisions is a result of culturally pressure.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #3 - January 12, 2014, 08:21 PM

    Quote from: Lynna
    Is this about a book you're writing?

    I answered your question in the first line of my OP. I'm guessing you read it. If this interpretation is right, then you're asking a rhetorical question intended only to lead to the next question for effect.
    Quote from: Lynna
    Or are you trying to convince yourself or some one else of something?

    What does "trying to convince yourself" mean? Do you mean *judge an idea*? If that's what you mean, then 'yes I'm trying to judge an idea'. To judge an idea means to consider what problem it's intending to solve and trying to find flaws in it. A flaw means that the idea fails to solve the problem it's intended to solve. And what's needed is an explanation that explains why the idea fails to solve the problem.
    Quote from: Lynna
    Quite honestly I didn't finish reading it because it seems kind of circular and general.

    What does "seem circular" mean? If you think it's circular, then explain it. If you don't have an explanation, then you're wrong.
    Quote from: Lynna
    There is no situational examples of what you're trying to say.

    How do you know that? Is it because it "seems" that way to you? Or do you have an explanation? If you don't have an explanation, then you're wrong.
    [I recently added this to the essay, which gives some examples.]
    Quote
    What's interesting about the status-based-respect idea is that it denies that respect has to be earned. A person thinking like this may be in the wrong, and know it, and still demand to be treated as though his is in the right. Street thugs do it when they violently demand respect. Authoritative parents do it when they say 'Don't argue with me' to their kids. Some girlfriends do it when they expect their boyfriends to side with them even when they are in the wrong.

    Quote from: Lynna
    There are no charts of data collected that people tend to be so emotionally immature that they jump to conclusions as a life practise.  Or are you talking about a trait in a certain ago group or educational background or lack there of or if this jumping to conclisions is a result of culturally pressure.

    It's mostly a result of ignorance of the danger of jumping to conclusions and of how to do better.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #4 - January 12, 2014, 08:31 PM

    I think it is a competition. Whoever gets most upset, is the best Muslim. It is a social display and there are some muhammed points in it.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #5 - January 12, 2014, 08:47 PM

    Good stuff Rami  Good Stuff.. but why put that heading ?  when you are looking at the issue in a boarder sense  "why anybody gets offended for anything."

    why not put that as heading?

    just to link it in some way to the book i'm writing on islam.

    i guess i'll write another essay with that change in it. i'll also take out any mention of mohamed.

    note that I put this at the end of the essay talking about muslims:

    "Now imagine a person with a status-seeking attitude who thinks that the king of his tribe (like Prophet Mohamed) has been disrespected. He would find this more offensive than anything else."


    this is unrelated, i added some text to the end of the essay:

    Quote
    The status-based attitude rears it’s ugly head in people’s politics too. These people align themselves politically by their tribal origin (status), rather than by their ideas (merit). It’s ugly because it’s not based on the truth. And because it means the person is unwilling to consider changing his mind about his politics -- because you can’t change your tribal origin.

    Judging ideas by merit means that if you find out that you’re wrong, you’re willing to change your mind. This way of thinking means the possibility of changing political affiliation.

    Alternatively, judging ideas by status means that if you find out that you’re wrong, you’re going to deny it and claim that you’re right, and demand respect too. This way of thinking means no possibility of changing political affiliation.

  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #6 - January 12, 2014, 08:58 PM

    I think it is a competition. Whoever gets most upset, is the best Muslim. It is a social display and there are some muhammed points in it.

    You’re right. It also happens in situations where a person wants another person to be convinced that he’s right and he does it by showing a bunch of emotion. It's as if they are competing for who shows the most emotion.

    It happens in gang culture too. The gang members compete for status. The one who does the most violent retaliation is the one who “wins”.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #7 - January 13, 2014, 04:13 PM

    Oh... the rest of the comment helped with what articles is about. Also the part you added.

    Just an alien idea to my way of thinking and culture. Would have never thought that the one who became the most offended could obtain social status.

    I still didn't read the entire article. I'm not sure what would get me interested enough in the topic. But a lot of people like it. So, for people who are interested it must be good.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #8 - January 13, 2014, 04:19 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq28qCklEHc

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #9 - January 13, 2014, 05:15 PM

    Would have never thought that the one who became the most offended could obtain social status.

    That's not what I said.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #10 - January 13, 2014, 05:18 PM

    i changed the ending. and i also added titles within the essay:

    Static ideas means static political ideas

    The status-based attitude rears it’s ugly head in people’s politics too. These people align themselves politically by their tribal origin (status), rather than by their ideas (merit). It’s ugly because it’s not based on the truth. And because it means the person is unwilling to consider changing his mind about his politics -- because you can’t change your tribal origin.

    Judging ideas by status means that if you find out that you’re wrong, you’re going to deny it and claim that you’re right, and demand respect too. This way of thinking means no possibility of changing your political affiliation even if you were given devastating criticism of your political ideas.


    Rational people

    Alternatively, judging ideas by merit means that if you find out that you’re wrong, you’re willing to change your mind. This way of thinking means the possibility of changing your political affiliation.

    Another way to describe the truth-seeking attitude is to describe the people who have it, rational people. As Elliot Temple said:
    Quote from: Elliot Temple http://curi.us/blog/post/1591
    Rational people are systems of ideas that can temporarily remove any one idea in the system without losing identity. We can remain functional without any one idea. This means we can update or replace it. And in fact we can often change a lot of ideas at once (how many depends in part on which).

    To criticize one idea is not to criticize my rationality, or my ability to create knowledge, or my ability to make progress. It doesn't criticize what makes me human, nor anything permanent about me. So I have no reason to mind it. Either I will decide it is correct, and change (and if I don't understand how to change, then no one has reason to fault me for not changing yet), or decide it is incorrect and learn something from considering it.

    The way ideas die in our place is that we change ourselves, while retaining our identity (i.e., we don't die), but the idea gets abandoned and does die.


    So a rational person sees criticism as win/win because it's part of his truth-seeking attitude. So when he gets quality criticism of his ideas, actions, or feelings, he doesn't interpret it as a personal attack and instead he tries to find out if the criticism is correct in order to try to extract value from it. He sees criticism as a good thing because he knows that criticism leads to further evolution of his knowledge. He sees criticism as necessary to improve himself. So he willingly seeks it out and enjoys thinking about it.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #11 - January 13, 2014, 05:57 PM

    Oh.
    Well...I'm sure you're finding some fulfilment in  writing about the culmination of your research and effort. There are several people who have found your effort a success. I do believe I've just had the wrong attitude about this information from the start. Perhaps after awhile I'll try to give it some more effort. It would be quite unfair to not got it just effort.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #12 - January 13, 2014, 09:08 PM

    I have not read the 3 links provides fully, I only skimmed, so if my point is moot I will concede the point. I just want to toss the idea out even if it's getting ahead of myself.

    I think you should link status, emotions and religion together within your argument in a more detailed manner. Not that I failed to see the link between gang culture, or any social grouping, and religion. However it is possible that your point could be lost on others. You provided examples about status, acceptance within as social circle and defense of said social grouping. Perhaps provide these examples within a religious context. You have Mohammad as the ideal leader. The ummah is the "gang" or status based group with clear status for those within and outside said social grouping. Link your examples with context from Islam be it verses in the Quran or Hadith.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #13 - January 13, 2014, 09:19 PM

    I don't know why this is surprising.

    I ran into a similarly related issue the other day. My wife's friend is Hindu and she was saying how when they first met she wasn't sure what my wife would say... if she would always try and convert her... My wife never did. So she asked why some Muslims/Christians always try and convert you. Most Hindus don't.

    To which I responded. Because they take their religion seriously.
    Honestly, if you actually believe in your faith, you would try and convert everyone.
    You actually believe that someone might go to hell or miss out on heaven if they don't believe in Islam, you would also be out there trying to convert everyone. You'd be an immoral jackass if you didn't. It would be like knowing there's a bomb planted in a building and you don't try and tell everyone to evacuate.

    Of course most Muslims don't truly believe in their religion, which is a good thing mind you.

    But this is something similar.

    You are attacking their most core beliefs of something they believe is perfect and Godly. Honestly, people get offended if you attack their favorite politician. Just think of how hurt they are if you attack their god/religion/favorite prophet.
    Not to mention the Islamic precedence for being offended/getting rid of/killing those who criticize or make fun or Islam.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #14 - February 06, 2014, 01:57 AM

    It’s because a lot of muslims worship Muhammad in all but name.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #15 - February 06, 2014, 02:02 AM

    they idol worship him

    Even Buddhists and Hindus don't worship their gurus in the way Muhammad is worshipped

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #16 - February 06, 2014, 02:03 AM

    Quote
    That's the thing with you kafirs, you have this inherent belief that us Muslims owe you all something, and that we need to alter our religion to please you, and act like we love and accept you; then you throw around the word peaceful as if us Muslims are trying to prove we are peaceful people - well we're not! We don't care what you think, so call us terrorists, go ahead, makes no matter to us. You really believe we care what you think? Allah Most High has described you guys i.e. the disbelievers as losers soooooooo you really think we care what losers think of us? And if a caliphate existed right now, you really think you could utter those words you did, without having your tongue severed from your mouth?

    Bye bye troll, please don't come again.


    From ummah...
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #17 - February 06, 2014, 02:31 AM

    I love a good superiority complex. Have you been poking at a collective one?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #18 - February 06, 2014, 02:40 AM

    Mehh I have  a bad reputation now   Cheesy
    Just after a few posts...
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #19 - February 06, 2014, 02:50 AM

    I believe it. People are always confused when you come at them from the inside.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #20 - February 06, 2014, 05:24 AM

    Muslims take their religion too seriously and make spectacle of themselves, which invites ridicule, which offends them which in turn invites more ridicule. So it goes in circles. 

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #21 - February 06, 2014, 10:34 AM

    Well they believe that their ancestors (Christians and Jews) had changed their religion, and now they (the perfect and infallible Muhammad's ummah) has to take the action of preserving the true religion and follow it seriously. As it is said in the scriptures that no tolerance of religious criticisms is allowed on a good Muslim's part, they are just FOLLOWING IT SERIOUSLY. Sorry, I couldn't put it in the proper way, but I hope you got my point.
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #22 - February 06, 2014, 10:56 AM

    May God preserve us from people who take their religion seriously!
  • Why do Muslims get offended?
     Reply #23 - February 06, 2014, 11:37 AM

    Quote
    That's the thing with you kafirs, you have this inherent belief that us Muslims owe you all something, and that we need to alter our religion to please you, and act like we love and accept you; then you throw around the word peaceful as if us Muslims are trying to prove we are peaceful people - well we're not! We don't care what you think, so call us terrorists, go ahead, makes no matter to us. You really believe we care what you think? Allah Most High has described you guys i.e. the disbelievers as losers soooooooo you really think we care what losers think of us? And if a caliphate existed right now, you really think you could utter those words you did, without having your tongue severed from your mouth?

    Bye bye troll, please don't come again.

    lol

    re "We don't care what you think."

    But writing a post about what we're thinking LITERALLY MEANS that you care what we think. Do you see the contradiction?
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