Louis Theroux: Thai Brides

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- Cornflower
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Louis Theroux: Thai Brides
Reply #30 - February 10, 2014, 11:11 PM

Yeah, but the "benefits" can vary to a very high degree depending on what you seek for in a partner. I think the new generation is different from the previous (on which the studies you mentioned are based on). I don't care if my partner collects trash, is a doctor, a university professor or if he has his own business. The important thing is that he is productive and takes pride in what he does, no matter what it is. And at the end of the day, I value traits like loyalty or humor and intelligence much more than the size of the man's pay check. And by the way, I prefer the term partnership more over "marriage". Perhaps it's the little Swede in me, but I don't think you have to get married in order to have a serious relationship, with children (if you even want to have kids)...

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- scamper_22
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Reply #31 - February 10, 2014, 11:26 PM

@cornflower

Ah yes... in that case it makes things more clear.

If you're talking more about a 'partnership' as opposed to a marriage, then you can definitely make it work with both sides being modern.
But for a man again, the issue is complicated by the idea of alimony and child support... what happens when the partnership breaks down
The courts are still largely geared towards the traditional marriage concept even if people are not formally married.

I think a lot would have to change in the psyche of western men and the court system for that change to occur.
Right now, I can't sign any kind of agreement that would be legally binding where I could just go my separate way if the partnership didn't work out especially if there's kids involved.
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Reply #32 - February 11, 2014, 12:37 AM

Quote from: scamper_22 on February 10, 2014, 11:26 PM
I think a lot would have to change in the psyche of western men and the court system for that change to occur.
Right now, I can't sign any kind of agreement that would be legally binding where I could just go my separate way if the partnership didn't work out especially if there's kids involved.

And nor should you. At the very least financial support should be mandatory.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Cornflower
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Reply #33 - February 11, 2014, 08:47 AM

You misunderstood me. I am not talking about a partnership as any less "serious" than a marriage. I just don't believe in the institutionalized marriage because it is closely linked to certain traditional, and obsolete, ideas about masculinity and femininity and what it means being a "man" and a "woman".

You should never be able to just "walk away", whether a man or woman, if you have children together. Being in a marriage or not while having children should make no difference. As for alimony, this is something foreign to us in Scandinavia and I believe that this practice has its roots in the fact that in the US (among the middle classes, those who had the "privilege") and other parts of the world, a lot of women become stay-at-home moms and housewives and thus loose income. Even when returning to the job-market 10-15-20 years later they are far behind in terms of carrier and paycheck. They stayed at home "working" for the husband and caring for the house and children, making it possible for him to concentrate more on his work. So from that perspective, alimony is in a sense fair. Personally, I can't see what woman in her right mind would want to become a housewife except if she has no ambition whatsoever.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #34 - February 11, 2014, 01:17 PM

Quote
You misunderstood me. I am not talking about a partnership as any less "serious" than a marriage. I just don't believe in the institutionalized marriage because it is closely linked to certain traditional, and obsolete, ideas about masculinity and femininity and what it means being a "man" and a "woman".

That's not the experience of a lot of people who marry. If it were, why would same sex couples do it? Most see marriage as an act of love between two people, anything else is what they decide.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Cornflower
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Reply #35 - February 11, 2014, 02:49 PM

Of course I know that is not the experience or belief every single person has, I just expressed my own thoughts on it. And as for same sex marriages, it has more to do with the fact that people still today do not view relationships as "real" or "serious" if they aren't married. Not to mention that you still do not have the same legal rights as a married couple if you "only" have a registered partnership or whatever it's called. Marriage for me is closely linked to religion, and I have fully renounced religion so for me getting married in a curch or whatever seems silly,.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #36 - February 11, 2014, 03:06 PM

I suppose I have the benefit of not linking it to religion.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #37 - February 11, 2014, 04:16 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on February 11, 2014, 08:47 AM
Personally, I can't see what woman in her right mind would want to become a housewife except if she has no ambition whatsoever.

Perhaps. But perhaps that is why rates of marriage on the decline. I think Sweden has one of the lowest rates of marriages. Or divorce rates are high in many countries.
This is not a hit against it. It simply is what it is.

When it doesn't benefit either the man or the woman to be in the marriage or partnership or whatever you want to call it, then it is bound to be on its way out. If women can raise kids on their own and she can work on her own maybe with some government aid during the early years, then that is what she will do. If guys don't want to be burdened with a lifetime to responsibility of alimony or child support, they're not likely to enter into such agreements either.

Perhaps it is an outdated concept. Perhaps not.
But people are speaking with their actions by not getting married, having kids out of wedlock, marrying traditional people...
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Reply #38 - February 11, 2014, 05:50 PM

It's very sad if a person is mainly looking for someone to cook and clean for you or paying your bills when thinking about marriage. Realtionships are about companionship, you have a relationship with someone who gives you joy and with whom you can share good and bad times with. Support, love.

I can pay my own bills, and thankfully I live in a part of the world where I can leave my partner if I'm unhappy with him without worrying about how I'm gonna put food on the table. The reason why divorce rates are lower in more "traditional" countries are because there is a heavy social stigma surrounding it, as well as the women having slim or no chances to live on their own without a man providing for them. It's servitude and imprisonment basically, which is why in Islam marriages are compared with the slave-owner relationship. Even heard Mo said so in his fairwell speech but I never bothered to verify it (why, Islam is bad as it is).

Your perspective on marriage and relationships are very subjective, meaning that you have your own subjective and biased cultural views on marriage and man-woman relations which are not the same for all cultures. For example, matriarchal cultures have a very different perspective on marriages, and they are according to anthropological studies happier both in terms of relationships and break-ups. Sweden may have a high rate of divorces, which is not the ideal of course, but to aspire for a society where most or all people keep together throughout their lives is both unnatural and unreasonable.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #39 - February 12, 2014, 03:30 AM

This is an awful quandry. If you are married, and have children, and want to work, you have to pay someone to watch the children while you work. Assuming you and your spouse work the same shifts.
So if you are a high wage earner, this is a no-brainer. You just do it, as there is probably some monetary compensation involved.
But if you are a low wage earner, you are effectively working to pay for childcare, and then you have costs associated with the professional life that may or may not exceed that childcare cost.
For lower wage earners, it is more cost effective to quit working full time and stay with the children at home when they are small.

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Reply #40 - February 12, 2014, 08:24 AM

I know that child care is very expensive in the states. But in welfare states, for example Sweden and a lot of other countries in Europe, child care is available for everyone and doesn't cost you much. You can choose if you want to work or stay at home. And that is one of the reasons why the housewife profession is on a decline, and barely existing at all especially in northern Europe.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #41 - February 12, 2014, 12:59 PM

What about the househusband position?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Cornflower
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Reply #42 - February 12, 2014, 04:14 PM

My point is equally applicable for both genders.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- three
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Reply #43 - February 13, 2014, 02:08 AM

Quote from: Cornflower on February 12, 2014, 08:24 AM
I know that child care is very expensive in the states. But in welfare states, for example Sweden and a lot of other countries in Europe, child care is available for everyone and doesn't cost you much. You can choose if you want to work or stay at home. And that is one of the reasons why the housewife profession is on a decline, and barely existing at all especially in northern Europe.

That would be a dream. I cannot imagine.

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Reply #44 - February 13, 2014, 03:39 AM

It's a dream in Japan too. Women are well-educated, but don't work because they can't get childcare.

Of course when they do work, they end up making the tea. But that's another story...
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Reply #45 - February 13, 2014, 08:58 AM

It's a waste of human resources and know-how. It's times like this that I'm happy to have been born in Sweden. Free education, free healthcare, free childcare... I don't mind the high taxes, as long as I know that these taxes goes back to the people giving everyone a chance for a decent life

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #46 - February 13, 2014, 03:35 PM

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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