Abrahamic Religions' debt to Zoroastrianism

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Reply #30 - July 26, 2014, 04:57 PM

The wiki above is very late for the classic heaven and hell

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism#History

"Achaemenid era (648–330 BCE) Zoroastrianism developed the abstract concepts of heaven and hell,

And this leaves plenty of room for symbiosis from Egyptian, Greek, Jewish, Indian, Carthiginian, Roman, Chinese and many more sources as well as Persian.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #31 - July 26, 2014, 05:02 PM

Quote from: Zaotar on July 26, 2014, 01:22 AM
Those are fairly fringe views Mub. Standard academic views on proto Indo-European fairly strongly reject the "Indo-Iranian" origin belief. It is not considered a mainstream hypothesis; I know there are Indian scholars who argue vehemently for an "out of India" view, but they are considered deeply untenable by most scholars, and in large respect reflect partisan attempts to locate Vedic culture as a uniquely Indian development, rather than a complex cross-cultural development.

Seem my comments above re Max Muller and your so-called 'standard academic views'. Standard Academics at the time had no issues with Germans calling themselves Aryans, which was a farce. For sure, many of the proponents of the Indigenous Aryans theory are Hindutva nutjobs, but that does not mean the balanced form of the theory is untenable.

Quote from: Zaotar on July 26, 2014, 01:22 AM
In any event, I already gave plenty of links on the history of astrology, and it is a very well documented field -- you can go read it for yourself if you like. There's no way to disentangle astrology from its origins in Babylonian/Egyptian mathematics and Babylonian astrology. Trying to postulate an independent Indian origin doesn't work, historically, because there are far too many detailed ancient records and because the mathematics and imagery in astrology are attested so early, so extensively, and are so distinctively specific to the Babylonian and Egyptian traditions.

You gave me some links and to be fair I used a lot of that against your argument.

Quote from: Zaotar on July 26, 2014, 01:22 AM
The Yashts are still going on and on about polytheistic gods.

Prove it.

Quote from: Zaotar on July 26, 2014, 01:22 AM
And as far as Zoroastrianism borrowing from the Middle East, even if you START with the best known symbol of Zoroastrianism, the faravahar, it is a borrowing of older Middle Eastern and Egyptian symbols, not an "Aryan" belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faravahar

"The winged disc has a long history in the art and culture of the ancient Near and Middle East. Historically, the symbol is influenced by the "winged sun" hieroglyph appearing on Bronze Age royal seals (Luwian SOL SUUS, symbolizing royal power in particular). In Neo-Assyrian times, a human bust is added to the disk, the "feather-robed archer" interpreted as symbolizing Ashur."

"While the symbol is currently thought to represent a Fravashi (approximately a guardian angel) and from which it derives its name (see below), what it represented in the minds of those who adapted it from earlier Mesopotamian and Egyptian reliefs is unclear. Because the symbol first appears on royal inscriptions, it is also thought to represent the 'Divine Royal Glory' (Khvarenah), or the Fravashi of the king, or represented the divine mandate that was the foundation of a king's authority."

With all due respect I do not consider the winged-disk central to the Zoroastrian faith, it is just a symbol, and not one I consider particulary important. Whats important here is the belief system shared by Z and the Abrahamic faiths. I am not denying there are MINOR borrowings into Z.

Quote from: Zaotar on July 26, 2014, 01:22 AM
"Achaemenid era (648–330 BCE) Zoroastrianism developed the abstract concepts of heaven and hell, as well as personal and final judgment, all of which are only alluded to in the Gathas. "

If it is alluded to in the Gathas then that means the idea was there from the beginning. Not sure what point you are tryig to make. In addition, to argue the Chinvat Bridge idea was borrowed from somewhere else you need to show that it existed somewhere else beforehand.

Quote from: Zaotar on July 26, 2014, 01:22 AM
In addition, and strongly influenced by Babylonian and Akkadian practices, the Achaemenids popularized shrines and temples, hitherto alien forms of worship. In the wake of Achaemenid expansion, shrines were constructed throughout the empire and particularly influenced the role of Mithra, Aredvi Sura Anahita, Verethregna and Tishtrya, all of which, in addition to their original (proto-)Indo-Iranian functions, now also received Perso-Babylonian functions."

These shrines and temples funnily enough dont actually exist in todays Zoroastrianism. If they were part of the religion (atleast the Orthodox version of it) then what happened to them. I think these were actually cults who were not really Zoroastrian, Mithraism, for instance, is not the same as Zoroastrianism.

Quote from: Zaotar on July 26, 2014, 01:22 AM
Again, my overall point is NOT that Zoroastrianism was not influential on the Abrahamic religions -- it was -- but that the whole idea of a "pure source" that other religions are "derivative" of is historically nonsense. What we see in history is intensive cross-pollination and mixing, with religions developing over long periods of time, not bursting forth full-formed. That idea is as erroneous for Zoroastrianism as it is for Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.

Its not 'nonesense'. You have only proved very minor borrowing into Zoroastrianism (the winged disk). The idea is erroneous for the Abrahamic faiths but not for Zoroastrianism, as I hope I have shown

The only borrowing into Zoroastrianism you have shown is the winged-disk,
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Reply #32 - July 26, 2014, 05:07 PM

Quote from: moi on July 26, 2014, 04:57 PM
The wiki above is very late for the classic heaven and hell

And this leaves plenty of room for symbiosis from Egyptian, Greek, Jewish, Indian, Carthiginian, Roman, Chinese and many more sources as well as Persian.

Heaven and Hell are alluded to in the Gathas. 'Leaving room' is not an argument. I would like to see ideas that first appear externally and then through some process enter into Z. Without those ideas pre-existing elsewhere, they can still be considered 'pure' and internal. In the case of Heaven and Hell, it would a fleshing out, elaboration of a pre-existing concept which in no way proves external influence.
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Reply #33 - July 26, 2014, 05:44 PM

The Cult of Osiris had concepts of Heaven and Hell based on a code of morals. These ideas developed around the same time Z was started, long before any of the imperial eras. Although I can not see a direct link between the two. There could be a secondary element such as the Hittites or city-state empires of the Fertile Crescent. I do not think you can suggest that Z developed it first nor is the direct predecessor to the concept in other religions.
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Reply #34 - July 26, 2014, 06:34 PM

"I do not think you can suggest that Z developed it first nor is the direct predecessor to the concept in other religions."

I dont know if the cult of Osiris developed the idea or not. But as far as the Abrahamic concept is concerned, it is pretty obvious that this comes from Zoroastrianism because there is no known link between Judaism and the cult of Osiris. Only that explains why the Jews developed this belief specifically under the Persians, post-Exhile, and at no other time prior (or later)

It's possible someone thought of Heaven and Hell 20,000 years ago, but the idea didnt go anywhere and would be irrelevant to this thread.
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Reply #35 - July 26, 2014, 08:29 PM

Mubs I think you need to consider two points here. First, much of the claims and arguments you are making are typically advanced by a Hindutva ideology, as well as an anti-Semitic ideology, which seeks to locate the origins of all of civilization in an *Aryan* climate rather than Semitic. So the idea that other ideologies are "racist" has never had much weight given the chauvinism and racism associated with these views. There's a reason, after all, that the Nazis chose a swastika for their emblem ... they wanted to erase the Semitic heritage and replace it by exalting Aryanism. This has long been a fringe view, and it has been picked up in particular by the modern Hindutva movements. Much like Muslims argue that everything and anything was 'predicted' by the Qur'an, so you often find modern Indians arguing that everything was predicted by the Vedas ... quantum physics, relativity, atomic theory, etc., all allegedly predicted in the Vedas, just as the Chinese argue the I Ching did, just as Muslims argue the Qur'an did. Once you've seen how the argument works and is repeated in all these different national chauvinistic contexts, you know how untenable it is. You can always make up history and what 'must have happened' when you don't have clear written records, and in the case of ancient Iran and vedic India, we don't.

In addition, the "racism" argument has never had a good explanation for why Western scholars tend to locate the Indo European homeland in Armenia, Anatolia, or the Caucasus. It's not like Anatolia or Armenia is somehow a monument to European racial supremacy. If this mainstream consensus of scholars was all a racist plot (as modern Indians often claim), one would expect it to make some sense as a racist plot.

So it's important to have a *broad* view of how scholars look at these issues, rather than just accusing one side or the other of racism. The question is what the better explanations are given actual evidence.

Second, there simply aren't any written records for most of the claims people make about Vedic India and Avestan Persia, largely because these were *illiterate* cultures that learned writing extremely late -- and learned writing, of course, from SEMITIC cultures; when the Avestas were first written down, incredibly late, it was in an Aramaic script derivative (Pahlavi), likewise the Vedas. When you do look at the ancient hymns in the Gathas and the Vedas, they are incredibly fascinating, but again I simply don't agree that they bear much resemblance to Abrahamic religion, and the vast majority of scholars would say the same. You cannot retroactively read later religious developments from thousands of years later into the earliest texts: they have to be clearly expressed in those texts. Even the much later Avestan scriptures are still radically different than Semitic scriptures that preceded and followed them, such that it is really to my mind impossible to argue that one is simply derivative of the other -- although I agree they had fascinating influence back and forth.

Again, I would say that retrospectively reading later religious developments into earlier texts is practically a defining characteristic of religion, however, and so it is hard to appreciate how extensive it is. Islam in particular is a magnificent example, with its reading of the sirah, the exegesis, the sunnah, back into a Qur'an that hardly supports any of the elaborate extrapolations made many centuries later about it.
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Reply #36 - July 26, 2014, 09:05 PM

I dont think it's fair to debase my arguments by associating them with Hindu extremists, implying that I should be painted with the same brush, This is just a cheap tactic and one that does not address the points I made. Whether there are Hindutva loonies with the same views is irrelevant, I gave you specific information and rational for my views and that is what you should be addressing. Myself, Kazanas and the few academics who I quoted are not Hindutva loonies, and I deliberately made an effort to stay away from such sources.

I mentioned racial bias because you mentioned the mainstream academic viewpoint. Pro-Western (and Christian) bias was a factor in the establishment of those mainstream academic views. South Asia was discounted from beginning and with Academia, once they agree on something and the whole field goes in that direction, it is difficult to retract.

As an example, it was Muller who first dated the RIgveda around 1700BC, a date mainstream academics still support. However, when questioned on this he says himself,

“Whether the Vedic hymns were composed 1000 or 1500 or 2000 or 3000 years B.C., no power on earth will determine.”

Believe me I know this subject, and the Aryan Invasion theory has very little in its favour. Mainstream or not, it is absurd!

Ofcourse the Gathas and Vedas dont bear much resemblance to the Abrahamic literature. We are only talking about the main beliefs of the religions (not vedic obviously). The Quran for instance is 800 pages long, but the stuff we're interested in are just the beliefs that unite the 4 faiths, and they can fit into one page. I have no problems admitting that most of the rest of it comes from somewhere else.
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Reply #37 - July 26, 2014, 09:14 PM
Quote from: mubs_352 on July 26, 2014, 09:05 PM
I dont think it's fair to debase my arguments by associating them with Hindu extremists, implying that I should be painted with the same brush, This is just a cheap tactic and one that does not address the points I made. Whether there are Hindutva loonies with the same views is irrelevant, I gave you specific information and rational for my views and that is what you should be addressing. Myself, Kazanas and the few academics who I quoted are not Hindutva loonies, and I deliberately made an effort to stay away from such sources.

I mentioned racial bias because you mentioned the mainstream academic viewpoint. Pro-Western (and Christian) bias was a factor in the [u]establishment [/u]of those mainstream academic views. South Asia was discounted from beginning and with Academia, once they agree on something and the whole field goes in that direction, it is difficult to retract.

As an example, it was Muller who first dated the RIgveda around 1700BC, a date mainstream academics still support. However, when questioned on this he says himself,
“Whether the Vedic hymns were composed 1000 or 1500 or 2000 or 3000 years B.C., no power on earth will determine.”
Believe me I know this subject, and the Aryan Invasion theory has very little in its favour. Mainstream or not, it is absurd!
I agree with most of what you say Mr. mubs_352., but .. this this "no power on earth will determine.” DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME.. well I am a senseless guy but still I would love to get your point of view on that..
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Of course the Gathas and Vedas dont bear much resemblance to the Abrahamic literature. We are only talking about the main beliefs of the religions (not vedic obviously). The Quran for instance is 800 pages long, but the stuff we're interested in are just the beliefs that unite the 4 faiths, and they can fit into one page. I have no problems admitting that most of the rest of it comes from somewhere else.

Yes.. yes.. That appears to be true. Or is it a fact? I don't know the gods know the best.. but Mr. mubs_352., could you please elaborate these two words a bit " (not vedic obviously)".,

why? what is so special about that Vedic technology or vedic engineering?
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Reply #38 - July 26, 2014, 10:01 PM

"no power on earth will determine.” - I suppose Muller just means he doesnt know and it's probably very hard to determine their age. If I give you poem there are only a few things you can use to determine its age. I suppose he is saying we will never be sure. He is correct so far, 100 years later, we still no closer to determining their correct age.

"Obviously not Vedic" as this thread is about the Influence of Zoroastrian on Abrahamic faiths. Vedic is very different to the Abrahamic faiths and we are not comparing it with them in this thread.

Vedic technology or engineering (if such things existed) have nothing to do with this thread. Nor do I know anything about that subject.
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Reply #39 - July 26, 2014, 10:11 PM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 26, 2014, 10:01 PM
"no power on earth will determine.” - I suppose Muller just means he doesnt know ............

Oh I see., those are Muller words., I was wrong., I was under the impression they are your words., sorry about that..
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Vedic technology or engineering (if such things existed) have nothing to do with this thread. Nor do I know anything about that subject.

well when I used "Vedic technology or engineering"., I didn't mean in terms of Science & engineering ., it is more like Social Engineering, religious engineering ., political engineering, RITUAL ENGINEERING of a society ., that is what I meant..
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"Obviously not Vedic" as this thread is about the Influence of Zoroastrian on Abrahamic faiths. Vedic is very different to the Abrahamic faiths and we are not comparing it with them.

Well don't worry about thread.. IT IS ALL ABOUT FAITH..

"Faith is a faith IS A FAITH"

So mubs_352., now tell me., what is so different about vedic faith w.r.t. Zoroastrian or Abrahamic faiths?? Well I consider faiths/religious scriptures are the products of their time and space.. Some good words.. some bad words.. some silly .. some stupid..

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Reply #40 - July 26, 2014, 11:02 PM

It's difficult trying to explain Vedic to people in this age as our ideas of religion are based on modern religions, and they are quite far from Vedic or PIE (Probably the Greeks would find it easier as their religious customs where somewhat similar).

As a start, you should'nt think of belief in the vedic sense a being the same (literal) belief we get in the Abrahamic faith. It is far more nuanced.

The central concept in Vedic is Rta. Rta can be translated Truth, Eternal Truth, Cosmic Law, Existence, Well-Formed etc. It is the cause of everything and is beginning and the rhythm of the Universe. Hindus believe in Karma and Dharma, but in Vedic those concepts were secondary to Rta and Rta is what causes them. Cognate words from PIE inc Ritual, Rightous, Right (as in correct), Route, Art so these give us another understanding of Rta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%B9%9Ata
"In the Vedic religion, Ṛta (Sanskrit ऋतं ṛtaṃ "that which is properly joined; order, rule; truth") is the principle of natural order which regulates and coordinates the operation of the universe and everything within it."

I believe the religion expounds that the ideal life is according to Rta, Physically, Morally, and Ritually.

(When you read the translations, they will have Rta translated as Order, Truth etc so you will not necessarily know that is Rta that is being mentioned, and you might just think its 'truth' in a more normal sense of the word)

The Gods are only agents of Rta and it is Rta that gives them their power. The Gods are natural powers/concepts and are not anthropomorphic (in human form) neither are they idols as in modern hinduism. To understand their nature and conception we can look at some of their names

Mitra = mi (to fix, bind) + tra ("tool suffix", that which causes to) = That which causes to Bind or The Binder or Means-of-Binding, Mitra is the divinity related to contracts, oaths and friendship.

Aryaman = Arya (The Aryan Community) + Man (Mind or consciousness) = Consciousness or Spirit of the Aryan Communtity or Community Spirit.

Bhaga = Bhag (to break, distribute, Bestower) = That which bestows, provides our share. Destiny. Later a generic name for God. Bagdad = God-Given

As a comparison, we have Khuda, what many Muslims call God, from Iranian roots, though not in Vedic

Khuda = Khud (itself) = Khudai (of itself, inherent power). Khuda = That which causes itself, the un-caused.

Other Vedic Gods are

Agni (Fire),
Ushas (Dawn),
Varuna,
Indra (Physical/Mental Power)
and many more

Many of these divinities appear in other branches of Indo European but Vedic has their most original and complete form. For instance, Agni is Ignis in Latin and we have 'ignite' in English. Ushas is Arora, Varuna is Uranus

Of course the religion is hard to 'experience' without the Vedic language, and I think rather than the beliefs and ideas, it was actually the quality and nature of the Vedic hymns that gave it authority.
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Reply #41 - July 26, 2014, 11:07 PM

See I have always thought the ancient greek and ancient vedic religions make sense more than the modern day goliaths. Seem more metaphorical.
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Reply #42 - July 26, 2014, 11:19 PM

Vedic, or atleast Proto-Indo-European, were certainly Goliaths of their day. This was no minor religion or culture.
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Reply #43 - July 26, 2014, 11:21 PM

Well there seems more beauty in them theologically.
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Reply #44 - July 26, 2014, 11:40 PM

Some excerpts

"They indeed were comrades of the gods, Possessed of Truth, the poets of old:
The fathers found the hidden light, And with true prayer brought forth the dawn. "

"When ye, O Gods, in yonder deep closeclasping one another stood,
Thence, as of dancers, from your feet a thickening cloud of dust arose."

"Mitra whose glory spreads afar, he who in might surpasses heaven,
Surpasses earth in his renown."

"How long a time, and they shall be together,—Dawns that have shone and Dawns to shine hereafter?
She yearns for former Dawns with eager longing, and goes forth gladly shining with the others.
Gone are the men who in the days before us looked on the rising of the earlier Morning.
We, we the living, now behold her brightness and they come nigh who shall hereafter see her."
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Reply #45 - July 26, 2014, 11:42 PM

Quote from: Lilyesque on July 26, 2014, 11:21 PM
Well there seems more beauty in them theologically.

Exactly
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Reply #46 - July 27, 2014, 12:41 AM

Quote from: Lilyesque on July 26, 2014, 11:21 PM
Well there seems more beauty in them theologically.

"beauty is in the eyes of beholder" .....Lilyesque .,

Anyways Mr. mubs_352 put out loads of stuff

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 26, 2014, 11:02 PM
It's difficult trying to explain Vedic to people in this age as our ideas of religion are based on modern religions, and they are quite far from Vedic or PIE (Probably the Greeks would find it easier as their religious customs where somewhat similar).

Why is it so difficult to explain vedic Ideas/religious thoughts now mubs_352? Don't you think we are much smarter than those guys and in a better position and should be easier for us to understand those manuscripts now? Why make big deal about these ooold books ., Can you give me links of them??

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/ well some time back I went to through that link ...10 years back ., And I don't see anything special in them., Except what hindus have is freedom to pray whatever they like .. Fire, Wind., O2, N2, Sun., moon.. Sure those guys made everything and anything as god and it appears to continued to to this day.
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As a start, you should'nt think of belief in the vedic sense a being the same (literal) belief we get in the Abrahamic faith. It is far more nuanced.

Well to understand that I should know where you read those vedic senses/ belief/s ., link it we will discuss in time..
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The central concept in Vedic is Rta. Rta can be translated Truth, Eternal Truth, Cosmic Law, Existence, Well-Formed etc. It is the cause of everything and is beginning and the rhythm of the Universe. Hindus believe in Karma and Dharma, but in Vedic those concepts were secondary to Rta and Rta is what causes them. Cognate words from PIE inc Ritual, Rightous, Right (as in correct), Route, Art so these give us another understanding of Rta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%B9%9Ata

Rta., PIE., rituals whatever Not sure what you are saying but please realize that wikipedia.org is an editable link not standard text of religious scriptures of hindus or for other cultures/religions..

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"In the Vedic religion, Ṛta (Sanskrit ऋतं ṛtaṃ "that which is properly joined; order, rule; truth") is the principle of natural order which regulates and coordinates the operation of the universe and everything within it."

I believe the religion expounds that the ideal life is according to Rta, Physically, Morally, and Ritually.

well you must have the RIGHT TO BELIEVE and others must have the right to question..
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(~~When you read the translations,~~ they will have Rta translated as Order, Truth etc so you will not necessarily know that is Rta that is being mentioned, and you might just think its 'truth' in a more normal sense of the word)

That is simply evading., what you are saying is, you don't have proper words in other language to translate. I guess from that Indian language Sanskrit., Do you read and understand that language??
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The Gods are only agents of Rta and it is Rta that gives them their power. The Gods are natural powers/concepts and are not anthropomorphic (in human form) neither are they idols as in modern hinduism. To understand their nature and conception we can look at some of their names

What is the modern hinduism and old Hinduism? could you give me some time line of that such as you see here for Islam http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0

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Mitra = mi (to fix, bind) + tra ("tool suffix", that which causes to) = That which causes to Bind or The Binder or Means-of-Binding, Mitra is the divinity related to contracts, oaths and friendship.

Aryaman = Arya (The Aryan Community) + Man (Mind or consciousness) = Consciousness or Spirit of the Aryan Communtity or Community Spirit.

Bhaga = Bhag (to break, distribute, Bestower) = That which bestows, provides our share. Destiny. Later a generic name for God. Bagdad = God-Given

As a comparison, we have Khuda, what many Muslims call God, from Iranian roots, though not in Vedic

Khuda = Khud (itself) = Khudai (of itself, inherent power). Khuda = That which causes itself, the un-caused.

Other Vedic Gods are

Agni (Fire),
Ushas (Dawn),
Varuna,
Indra (Physical/Mental Power)
and many more

Many of these divinities appear in other branches of Indo European but Vedic has their most original and complete form. For instance, Agni is Ignis in Latin and we have 'ignite' in English. Ushas is Arora, Varuna is Uranus

Of course the religion is hard to 'experience' without the Vedic language, and I think rather than the beliefs and ideas, it was actually the quality and

Hmm to me that sounds like linguistic jugglery., well the way you are writing "Ushas is Arora, Varuna is Uranus " you can easily say from these words of yours

Later a generic name for God. Bagdad = God-Given

Bagdad as Iraq city Bagdad ., or Bag Dad.. or daddy bag ., as far as this " Of course the religion is hard to 'experience' without the Vedic language,".. is concerned.,

What is this vedic language? And..and Any religion that is language specific is regional religion NOT UNIVERSAL., see this 22 year old korean guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySN6AAmEmG0

I say his words and sounds are as powerful as those vedic hymens I read at http://www.sacred-texts.com

Anyway please continue., I am not questioning or judging you but trying to understand your point of view on FAITHS..

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Reply #47 - July 27, 2014, 12:47 AM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 26, 2014, 06:34 PM
"I do not think you can suggest that Z developed it first nor is the direct predecessor to the concept in other religions."

I dont know if the cult of Osiris developed the idea or not. But as far as the Abrahamic concept is concerned, it is pretty obvious that this comes from Zoroastrianism because there is no known link between Judaism and the cult of Osiris. Only that explains why the Jews developed this belief specifically under the Persians, post-Exhile, and at no other time prior (or later)

It's possible someone thought of Heaven and Hell 20,000 years ago, but the idea didnt go anywhere and would be irrelevant to this thread.

There are Hellenistic influences as well as Egyptian. The association of fire with evil is not a Z concept but a Greek and Egyptian one. The sacrifice of servant Jesus is more Greek than Z as well as his confrontation of Satan. I believe Z was a catalyst in the case of dualism of good and evil as separate figures. The purity laws are definitely Z based. However not all current concepts are based on Z by a long shot.
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Reply #48 - July 27, 2014, 01:53 AM

No we are not necessarliy smarter now. We can't understand them because our social context is different. I make a big deal coz I think they are the highest achievement of human literature. Linguists and historian make a big deal because they are central to Indo European History.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/index.htm

It seems you read about Hinduism which is not the same. Belief is not neccesary to appreciate the vedic poetry. Does mitra really exist? Does the concept of binding exist, as in a binding oath, keeping to your word and is that important for society. Its the same with Greek myth, the idea of belief is not so relevant,whereas as it is the single most important thing in islam and Christianity.

Yea that's correct, we dont have a word that translates Rta. It is from Vedic, which is the older form and not technically Sanskrit.

There's no consensus on the timeline. I see those hymns being composed no later than 3000BC. But this is a controversial subject. I dont have a timeline but modern Hinduism/ Mahabharat probably starts around 1500BC. Regarding the difference there are quite a few. The nature of thw people is radically different. Hinduism being a more peaceful and passive religion whereas the vedic people seem to be preoccupied with war. It is roughly Vedic=Pakistan, Hinduism = India.

Aurora and Uranus are the Latin versions of Ushas and Varuna

But it is language specific. Not all languages are equal. English for instance is a mish mash of Latin, German and some Greek. There is no consistency or uniformity. poetry in English near impossible to write as it is a stress timed language and not syllable times. Also, due to nature and antiquety if vedic it has similar words for different things, this allows the poets to talk at different levels and have different levels of meaning.

Ultimately our thoughts are based on language so the nature of our language has a huge affect on our consciousness. The older 'purer' languages are more likely to be internally consistent and uniform, ordered, the more they mix the more disorderly and chaotic they become
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Reply #49 - July 27, 2014, 02:39 AM
mubs_352 you are mixing so many things in one post and confusing the hell out of the readers like me
Quote from: mubs_352 on July 27, 2014, 01:53 AM
..............I think they are the highest achievement of human literature.............

Such statements as "I THINK" are specific to person/culture/individual taste .. NOT UNIVERSAL ..
Quote
It seems you read about Hinduism which is not the same. Belief is not neccesary to appreciate the vedic poetry. Does mitra really exist? Does the concept of binding exist, as in a binding oath, keeping to your word and is that important for society. Its the same with Greek myth, the idea of belief is not so relevant,whereas as it is the single most important thing in islam and Christianity.

Vedic Poetry?? So at the end all these vedas of vedism is nothing but rhyming words of a language and poetry?
Quote
Yea that's correct, we dont have a word that translates Rta. It is from Vedic, which is the older form and not technically Sanskrit.

well whether it is rta, bta, cta., it makes no difference if the language is unable to convey the message means., It is as good as the silly words in Quran for e,g..

Quote
a Seen Meem.[Al Quran ; 28:1]

Ta Seen, [Al Quran ; 27:1]

Ta Seen Meem [Al Quran ; 26:1]

Ta Ha. [Al Quran ; 20:1]

Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad. [Al Quran ; 19:1]

Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 15:1]

Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 14:1]

read more at http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10181.msg261962#msg261962

Quote
[s]There's no consensus on the timeline. I see those hymns being composed no later than 3000BC. But this is a controversial subject. I dont have a timeline but modern Hinduism/ Mahabharat probably starts around 1500BC. Regarding the difference there are quite a few. The nature of thw people is radically different. Hinduism being a more peaceful and passive religion whereas the vedic people seem to be preoccupied with war. It is roughly Vedic=Pakistan, Hinduism = India.

Aurora and Uranus are the Latin versions of Ushas and Varuna

But it is language specific. Not all languages are equal. English for instance is a mish mash of Latin, German and some Greek. There is no consistency or uniformity. poetry in English near impossible to write as it is a stress timed language and not syllable times. Also, due to nature and antiquety if vedic it has similar words for different things, this allows the poets to talk at different levels and have different levels of meaning.

Ultimately our thoughts are based on language so the nature of our language has a huge affect on our consciousness. The older 'purer' languages are more likely to be internally consistent and uniform, ordered, the more they mix the more disorderly and chaotic they become[/s]
well I don't even know how many question I should phrase on your ASSUMPTIONS, IMAGINATIONS of that vedic poetry but this is interesting to read " It is roughly Vedic=Pakistan, Hinduism = India. .. "

what wars are you talking in vedic period? how many people you think were there on the planet some 3000 years ago? Singing songs writing rhyming words in a language is neither progress nor it shows intelligence of a culture.. Anyway you will be better of discussing with Zaotar., I am way busy and far away from your 3000 year old Sanskrit songs

with best wishes
yeezevee
Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #50 - July 27, 2014, 10:16 AM

Several issues I wish to briefly touch upon.

First are golden age theorems - Adam walked with God therefore had access to all God's knowledge, old books are nearer Adam and therefore contain quantum physics etc.

Next is how interconnected the world was.

Silk Road is very ancient, but what people forget is that individuals very rarely travelled very far. What would happen is you would travel a day or so and stop overnight and would sell your stuff onto another caravan.

Stories would be told at each inn, with drink food and women after an exhausting day, so ideas would transfer like waves, and get changed in the retelling.

There probably isn't a clear starting point for most stuff, it is all added together, accumulation and co-evolution of ideas, explanations, stories.

What might be traced are particular elements - people living in volcanic regions developing ideas of hell fire for example, or having seen a volcano.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/james-burke-connections/

Remember a significant part of the trade was of story telling goods - otherwise known as slaves. They might travel very long distances.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #51 - July 27, 2014, 10:25 AM

The discussion of mashed up urdu elsewhere was and is the reality - imagine a world where everyone communicates with each other like that! And what religions and stories and practices would result!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #52 - July 27, 2014, 02:58 PM

It seems like a major discussion on this thread is whether ideas develop internally and in isolation and hence can be called 'pure' or whether they are created by a mixing from different cultures. I would like to make the point that, as you say, in the ancient times, people could'nt travel very far, and populations were smaller. In those days most cultures would have developed in isolation. Also, before ideas can mix and travel, they need to be created. It is clear that in ancient times there was a higher degree of isolation amongst culture, and this would increase as we go further back in time. Therefore, most ancient ideas would occur not by mixing of different ideas, but as a logical and internal development within a particular culture.
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Reply #53 - July 27, 2014, 03:08 PM

Quote
It seems like a major discussion on this thread is whether ideas develop internally and in isolation and hence can be called 'pure' or whether they are created by a mixing from different cultures. I would like to make the point that, as you say, in the ancient times, people could'nt travel very far, and populations were smaller. In those days most cultures would have developed in isolation. Also, before ideas can mix and travel, they need to be created. It is clear that in ancient times there was a higher degree of isolation amongst culture, and this would increase as we go further back in time. Therefore, most ancient ideas would occur not by mixing of different ideas, but as a logical and internal development within a particular culture.

Agreed based upon my limited knowledge. It also stands to reason that without consistent contact with out groups that ideas within the ingroup would remain constant and without challenge from within the ingroup or outgroup would remain dominant, if not stagnant much to the disadvatange of the in group.

Jedi - so many ins and outs. Do I have something else in mind?

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #54 - July 27, 2014, 03:57 PM

There is an important consequence when people borrow ideas and regards how forms develop that lose their original meaning and 'groundedness'.

If a person creates an idea, some technology or anything of significant complexity, it follows that that person has a deep understanding of the limitations of what they have created. Consequently they are able to put safeguards in place to ensure the his creation does not result in negative consequences. When others see those ideas and how effective they are, they desire to adopt them. However, having not gone through the creation process they do not see the limitations and safeguards and just take what they think is of value. We ultimately end up with a corrupted and unbalanced version of the original idea which could be very far from its original conception, only resembling it in superficial form.

As an example, lets take modern Art. Modern Art is something very few people understand and even academics argue about what defines Art. However, if we look at History, we can see how this concept developed and why it is now so far from the 'original' thing.

Modern Art (Painting) has an unbroken tradition that goes back to paintings in Churches, Those paintings depicted stories and scenes from Christianity and those stories are what gave the paintings their value. The greatness in the paintings derived from how well they represented the stories and less so the purely asthetic form of the painting. Later painting moved away from the stories and became more about the asthetic form. Modern Art has moved away further and in looking at it we cannot see any trances of the original christian themes that gave that Art its meaning.

Sculpting, which has a tradition going back to ancient greece is pretty much the same, Modern Sculptures do not have any of the meaning inherent in early greek art which was grounded in greek myth. It's purely about how it looks.

Same thing with poetry. Modern poetry has moved away from using metre and now is unconstrained by any regard for rhythm. The poems of shakespeare (and any pre 20th century poet) for instance, were written in strict metre similar with all ancient. Also, ancient poetry was more concerned with the social and moral 'higher ideals' embodied in mythology rather than the modern form, which has more to do with individual emotion and experience.

This is why I am more interested in the ancient stuff.

"Supreme art is a traditional statement of certain heroic and religious truths, passed on from age to age, modified by individual genius, but never abandoned. The revolt of individualism came because the tradition had become degraded, or rather because a spurious copy had been accepted in its stead". [William Butler Yeats]
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Reply #55 - July 28, 2014, 05:23 AM

Quote from: mubs_352 on July 27, 2014, 02:58 PM
It seems like a major discussion on this thread is whether ideas develop internally and in isolation and hence can be called 'pure' or whether they are created by a mixing from different cultures. I would like to make the point that, as you say, in the ancient times, people could'nt travel very far, and populations were smaller. In those days most cultures would have developed in isolation. Also, before ideas can mix and travel, they need to be created. It is clear that in ancient times there was a higher degree of isolation amongst culture, and this would increase as we go further back in time. Therefore, most ancient ideas would occur not by mixing of different ideas, but as a logical and internal development within a particular culture.

Trade and travel were much more established than you have thought. Egyptian and Sumer trade covered hundreds of miles even in 4000 BCE, 3000 BCE saw the transition to ocean/sea vessels over coastal and Reed vessel. Populations were much higher than previously thought as well. For example Babylon during the Persian period may have been around 500,000 with it's surrounding rural population included.

My issue is not if ideas can developed in isolation. My issue is are you reading a belief system based on later develops of Z in the Persian period into stone age and early bronze age Z system. There is also the issue of identification of a group due to language which may not reflect a diverse cultural identity of individual city-states and kingdoms. For example Athens and Sparta in Greece are different in many ways. We identify both as Greece but each city-state is very different. There is also the issue of which city-state the first Z idea developed and what changes this idea went through as it spread to neighboring areas. Are the later Persian developments part of a cultural heritage of origins of Z or later adaptations due to various Persian cultures. Like we have noted Judaism has changed due to Persian and Greek influences, has this happened to Z as well?
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Topic: Abrahamic Religions' debt to Zoroastrianism

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