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Theme Changer

 Topic: A prophet of God

 (Read 2839 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • A prophet of God
     OP - August 22, 2014, 12:07 PM

    Can anyone explain why Mohammed is a prophet and not a Messiah?

    Prophets only point the way and guide.  Snag is God is so Holy and unreachable you need a sweet smelling sacrifice to save us.  A Christ.

    How does Islam work, what does it do to get you to heaven and what precisely is Mohammed's role in this?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #1 - August 22, 2014, 12:22 PM

    Q:  Can anyone explain why Mohammed is a prophet and not a Messiah?

    [s]Prophets only point the way and guide.  Snag is God is so Holy and unreachable you need a sweet smelling sacrifice to save us.  A Christ.

    How does Islam work, what does it do to get you to heaven and what precisely is Mohammed's role in this?[/s]

    Ans:  Because Quran says so..

    A 'messiah' is  someone anointed by god  to perform a specific task
    A prophet is someone who speaks for god

    Quran says Muhammad among many other things  is also   'messiah' and Prophet

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #2 - August 22, 2014, 12:38 PM

    But are not prophets and messiahs different job descriptions by definition?

    What is Mo as a prophet prophesying?

    What is Mo as a Christ saving and anointing?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #3 - August 22, 2014, 04:47 PM

    I'm not aware of the Qur'an describing Mo as a 'messiah.'

    The Qur'an itself isn't remotely clear on what it is, or who is speaking, or what the context is.  Muslim exegetical tradition imposes artificial clarity on it.  Only 3 times does it name Mo, and once more as "Ahmad"; only once does it clearly refer to a historical personal called muhammad who was a prophet (Qur'an 33:40, which in my view is a *very* late interpolation, probably one of the last major interpolations in the Qur'an).

    Parts of the Qur'an repeatedly refer to a 'messenger,' rasul, which is not the same as a prophet.  A messenger is just somebody who brings God's message.  In this sense, any preacher of monotheism in Arabic context could have correctly referred to them self as a "messenger" who was 'reminding' people of the message that God had sent to mankind.  The Qur'an says it is naught but a reminder and a warning ... in this sense, anybody reciting it would have been a messenger.

    Less commonly, the Qur'an refers to a speaker who is a 'nabi,' a prophet.  Unlike a messenger or messiah, a prophet is somebody who ... prophecies.  So what exactly did Mohammed prophecy (or put differently, what did the 'nabi' of the Qur'an prophecy)?  This is one of the strange things about the Qur'an and Islam:  nobody can say.  Mo is a prophet who doesn't make prophecies.  Nor does the Qur'an.  Why is this?

    My own theory is the same as Shoemaker/Casanova/David Cook, which is that Mo was originally an apocalyptic prophet calling Arabs to their destiny to seize the Holy Land, as children of Abraham, and initiate the Day of Judgment, when Jesus would return at the end of the world, and the dead would be resurrected.  That was Mo's prophetic function.

    When that never happened ... Mo died prior to seizing Jerusalem, and the apocalypse never came .... the apocalyptic prophecy was slowly weeded out of the belief system, with remainders peeking through ... and we were left with an Arab prophet who didn't actually make prophecies (since the false prophecies had been suppressed).  Yet he was still remembered as a 'prophet.'  This incongruity gives some insight into the development of early Islam.

    This is almost exactly what happened with Christianity as well, which grew from an apocalyptic beginning; it is a very common situation when an apocalyptic prophecy fails, the believers don't quite know what to do, and they either disband or radically reformulate their prophet's message into something different.
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #4 - August 22, 2014, 08:16 PM

    That sounds like Hagarism by Crone and Cooke!  But reading wiki etc "everyone"says it is rubbish.....

    I thought Mo was alive about 630, I can't remember if that means he might have been involved in an attack on Jerusalem. 

    Please expand on this, I agree Islam seems confused about these matters.  Do you recommend further reading?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #5 - August 22, 2014, 08:41 PM

    Shoemaker gives the best recent discussion of this viewpoint, but his book is stupidly expensive.  Not nearly so good, but at least free, is this discussion by David Cook (not to be confused with the different Cook who wrote Hagarism!) about Islam's later suppression of its apocalyptic origins.

    http://www.mille.org/publications/winter2001/cook.html

    The premise of Hagarism is different:  It's that Islam was originally a Jewish messianic movement, and that Mohammed was alive when Jerusalem was captured (!).  That was clearly incorrect; even Crone appears to agree.  As David Cook explains, the believers were in most respects much more aligned with Christian apocalyptic theology, not Jewish.  So the intimate Jewish/Arab relations argued for in Hagarism are improbable.  Crone herself viciously attacked Donner for recently arguing the same Jewish/Arab ecunemical relations in his book "Muhammad and the Believers."  Also, Mohammed clearly was NOT alive when Jerusalem was captured ... what is very clear is that the early believers were shocked by his untimely death, which occurred before the prophecy came true.  Finally, Hagarism gives an incorrect and faulty analysis of how and when the Qur'an was composed.

    On the other hand, the premises advanced in Hagarism that Mohammed and his followers were originally much more apocalyptic, that the Qur'an and Mohammed were primarily Syrian Arab phenomena rather than Hijazi, and that Mohammed led initial advances into Palestine, all remain very much live ... and I think are correct.  Shoemaker gives a great summary of these issues and debates.
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #6 - August 22, 2014, 09:22 PM

    Been wseiing!

    Quote
    I began along the path to this book many years ago, back in graduate school actually.  The focus of my training was on Christianity in the late ancient and early medieval Near East, but one of my good friends was an Islamicist who had initially started out in the history of Christianity.  We often discussed the differences in approach to studying the origins of the two traditions, and especially the relative absence of the “hermeneutics of suspicion” from study of early Islam.  This same friend first introduced me to a book by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, Hagarism, a highly provocative and controversial study of formative Islam based on the non-Islamic sources.  This was the first work to identify the discrepancy in the sources concerning the timing of Muhammad’s death.  I was struck by the quality of the evidence for this tradition, particularly its “multiple, independent attestation” in a variety of sources: such evidence is the “gold standard” of historical Jesus studies.  I initially intended to write a brief article noting the apparent quality of this evidence when viewed from another discipline.  But the article grew, and before long, I realized that I was writing a book.



    http://rorotoko.com/interview/20120424_shoemaker_stephen_on_death_prophet_end_muhammad_life_begin_islam/?page=2

    My impression is that Hagarism probably got more right than is acknowledged.  The point is that the Samaritan roots have been played down, and my enemis ememy is my friend with Judaic Arab working together did happen.  Also there is a huge Jewish influence on Islamic theology and Jurisprudence from the Jews of Babylon.  The negative points are more of detail.

    Wiki is awful on Hagarism, but maybe that is true of most of what it says about Islam.

    I need to check Tom Holland about this, but I think we have a trajectory - another prophet who is actually a war lord operating in the Samaria building on Samaritan Abrahamic traditions, a religion gets founded to try and pull together strands of religion, ethnicity, nation and culture, starts off quite Samaritan, moves to Babylon and becomes Jewish!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #7 - August 22, 2014, 09:23 PM

    I'm not aware of the Qur'an describing Mo as a 'messiah.'
    ......

     Hi  Zaotar.,   may be you didn't read Quran carefully..   Lol....  Then you should read below  to know that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was not only   'messiah.,  messenger and Prophet but many more things in his life..

    Selected Verses From The Holy Qur'an On  OUR BELOVED PROPHET MUHAMMAD Sallallahu 'alayhi wa Sallam  and HIS EXALTED STATUS

    Quote
    1. He is Nur (Sacred Light) (5:15)
    2. Allah blesses him (33:56)
    3. Mercy for all the worlds (21:107)
    4. His name is Muhammad (Meaning the Most Praised One) (47:2)
    5. Allah has exalted his Zikr (remembrance) (94:1-4)
    6. His exaltation on the Night of Mi’raj: his heavenly ascent (53:8-9)
    7. His Station of Praise (Al-Maqam al-Mahmud) (17:79)
    THE BELOVED OF ALLAH

    1. If you want to gain the love of Allah, follow him (3:31)
    2. Allah addresses him with love and affection (20:1) (36:1) (73:1) (74:1)
    3. Allah says: Realize that My Prophetic Messenger himself is with you (49:7)
    4. Allah describes him with His Own Attributes of Rauf (Most Kind) and Rahim (Merciful) (9:128)
    5. Allah Himself praises him (33:45-47)
    6. Possessor of Allah’s Grace (4:113)
    7. He is a special favour of Allah (Sub’hanahu wa Ta’ala) (3:164)
    8. Allah does not punish people if he is in their midst (8:33)
    9. Allegiance to him is allegiance to Allah (48:10)
    HE RECEIVED THE HOLY QUR'AN

    1. Allah gave him Surah al-Fatiha and the whole Qur’an (15:87)
    2. Totally inspired (53:3-4)
    3. Allah revealed the Noble Qur’an on his blessed heart (26:192-197)
    4. The first revelation he received (96:1)
    5. Teaches the Holy Qur’an and Hadith Sharif (Wisdom) and purifies people (62:2)
    AMONG THE PROPHETS ('Alayhimussalam)

    1. He is the Final Prophet (Sallallahu ‘alayhi wa Sallam) (33:40)
    2. Mentioned first among the greatest Prophets (‘Alayhimussalam) (33:7) (4:163)
    3. A Prophet whom Allah appointed with proven prophecies (30:1-6) (48:1) (48:27) (61:13)
    4. Given the knowledge of the unseen (3:179)
    5. Nabi Ibrahim (‘Alayhissalam) prayed for his coming (2:129)
    6. Foretold by Nabi ‘Isa (Jesus) (‘Alayhissalam) (61:6)
    7. Allah asks all the Prophets to believe in him (3:81)
    8. Confirms the previous (Prophetic) Messengers of Allah (37:37)
    SERVES ONLY ALLAH (THE GLORIFIED AND THE EXALTED)

    1. Worships only Allah (Sub’hanahu wa Ta’ala) (72:19-20)
    2. Puts total trust in Allah (Sub’hanahu wa Ta’ala) (9:129)
    3. Selflessly labours for Allah, asks for no reward (25:57) (42:23)
    4. Rewarded by Allah (68:3) (108:1)
    HIS EXEMPLARY CHARACTER

    1. Most examplary character (33:21) (68:4)
    2. Sadiq (Truthful) (33:22)
    3. Final judge and arbiter (4:65) (24:51)
    4. Honoured, Noble (69: 40)
    5. Forgiving (7:199)
    6. He is Burhan (Clear Proof) (4:174)
    7. Brave: Commands Muslims in battle (3:121)
    PREACHES ISLAM

    1. Established the correct Message of Islam (6:161-163) (39:11-12)
    2. Preacher to all humanity (4:170) (25:1) (34:28)
    3. He is Bashir and Nadhir (Bearer of glad tidings and a warner) (5:19)
    4. Invites people to Islam (12:108)
    5. Even the jinn respond to his call (46:29-31)
    6. He brought the truth (17:81) (39:33)
    7. He brought a new law (Shari’a) (7:157)
    8. A perfect guide to be followed (7:158)
    9. He calls you to that which gives you life (8:24)
    10. Brings people from the darkness (of Ignorance) to the Light (of Islam) (65:11)
    11. His religion prevails over all religion (48:28)
    HIS BLESSED FAMILY AND COMPANIONS (Rady Allahu 'Anhum)

    1. His Family purified by Allah (Sub’hanahu wa Ta’ala) (33:33)
    2. His Companions praised by Allah (Sub’hanahu wa Ta’ala) (48:29)
    3. His Companions: The Muhajirin and the Ansar (8:74) (9:100) (59:8-9)
    4. His Companions pledge allegiance to him (48:18)
    BELIEVE, HONOUR, LOVE, RESPECT AND OBEY HIM

    1. Believe, honour and respect him (48:9) (61:11)
    2. Love Allah and His Beloved Prophet more than anything else (9:24)
    3. He is closer to the believers than their own selves (33:6)
    4. Respect him (49:1-3)
    5. Obey Allah (Ta’ala) and His Beloved Prophet (Sallallahu ‘alayhi wa Sallam)
    (3:132) (4:13) (4:59) (4:69) (4:80) (9:71) (24:52) (24:54) (24:56) (33:71) (49:14) (64:12)

    6. Follow the Commands of Allah (Sub’hanahu wa Ta’ala)
    and of His Beloved Prophet (Sallallahu ‘alayhi wa Sallam) (33:36)
    7. Whatever he gives you, take it (59:7)
    8. The reward of believing in him (57:28)
    WAGED JIHAD AMIDST PERSECUTION

    1. Non-believers plot to kill him (8:30)
    2. His persecution (22:39-40)
    3. Commanded to fight alone for Allah (Sub’hanahu wa Ta’ala) (4:84)
    4. He led Muslims in prayer while in battle (4:102)
    5. Allah asks him to seek peace (8:61)
    6. Allah helped him in Jihad (33:9)
    7. Allah made him victorious (110:1)
    HIS MIRACLES

    1. Living miracle: The Holy Qur’an (2:23) (17:88) (52:34)
    2. Human miracle: he was the wasila (means) through whom people’s hearts were transformed (5:83)
    3. Heavenly miracle: Isra’ and Mi’raj (his heavenly ascent) (17:1) (53:8-18)
    4. Historic miracle: Hijra; escaped while surrounded (9:40)
    5. The miracle of the Battle of Badr: Victory against all odds (3:123-125)
    6. The splitting of the moon (54:1-2)
    INTERCESSOR (SHAFI')

    1. Allah appointed him as an intercessor to plead for people’s forgiveness (3:159) (4:64) (60:12)
    2. An accepted intercessor (19:87) (20:109)
    3. His supplication a relief for hearts (9:103)

      well  Zaotar  I am sure you can take few of those words from those verses and make it fit to   'messiah.'       Cheesy Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #8 - August 22, 2014, 09:28 PM

    Not sure Hagarism is saying things as above!

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/27096936/Hagarism-The-Making-of-the-Islamic-World

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #9 - August 22, 2014, 09:31 PM

    Yeez, but what does this Messiah do to save his people?  That list to be honest proves my point - all assertions, but prophesying what?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #10 - August 22, 2014, 09:40 PM

    Like I say, I agree that many of the premises of Hagarism are probably correct, but it goes off the rails in arguing the primary influence of Judaism/Samaritanism, as well as the influence of Babylonian Jewry.

    This is just not right.  The terminology of the Qur'an and its references are almost entirely Syriac Christian in derivation.  In no way does it resemble a Samaritan/Jewish book; it doesn't use Samaritan/Jewish terms, references, or theology.  Every time it refers to a tradition or story that is common to both Judaism and Christianity, the Qur'an prefers and follows the Syriac Christian account.  

    That's why I say Hagarism got this "Jewish Islam" wrong, backwards even.  It's not a correct or defensible statement of the believers' early relations with Judaism.  Crone herself has recanted this aspect of Hagarism; in fact it's the only aspect she has specifically recanted, as far as I know.

    Shoemaker's book corrects all these errors, and is a VASTLY superior version of the underlying Hagarism argument.  As it should be, considering the titanic revolution in Islamic scholarship between 1977 (Hagarism published) and 2012 (Shoemaker's book)!  We are talking about 35 years of phenomenal scholarship and revolutionary articles coming out of the woodwork.  Some of Hagarism has come out looking great, some of it hasn't.  That is what one would expect for such a bold theory.
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #11 - August 22, 2014, 09:55 PM

    Yeez, but what does this Messiah do to save his people?  .........

     How should  I answer that question moi??

    Q: what does this Messiah do to save his people?
    Ans: "Eat their followers brains and put some sand and some junk in it.."  

    ....I am one of those  guys who thinks  that "if some one claims that they are/were   'messiah.,  messenger.....Prophet.. whatever... of some god means either they are delusional or they are fooling people.  it is actually not their fault but  the fault of fools who follow them blindly"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #12 - August 23, 2014, 12:08 AM

    From what I recall, as a general rule of thumb in Islam(Egypt?), every prophet is a messiah, but not every messiah is a prophet. A messiah is sent to promote the monotheistic idea. A prophet is sent down with his own 'book' to start up an entirely new religion rather than simply promote the thought of a monotheistic god. There were only 3 prophets(Moses, Jesus, Moh) in history, but way more messiahs(the 3 prophets included obviously). Obviously the concept of a messiah is fairly imperfect, just because it is. Someone like Noah was obviously considered a messiah, he preached that people /must/ repent and go back to (believing in?..) Allah. Others such as Jo are regarded as messiahs in a fairly unorthodox and confusing way. It's hinted at that most messiahs were there to fix some issues in their respective communities(Lut?), but the ones that confuse me are the ones that simply existed to 'spread the good word', to tell people to 'believe in' Allah; there are no other instruction to follow, just that they should 'believe in' Allah.

    It's all very vague and nonsensical.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #13 - August 23, 2014, 12:33 AM

    I think you have to look at the Arabic used in the Qur'an.  There is no "messiah" word applied to Mohammed.  There's just rasul -- messenger -- and nabi -- prophet.  The Qur'an is very clear there were tons of different other messengers and nabis.

    Big contrast, the ONLY person that gets called the messiah in the Qur'an (al Masih) is, shocker, Jesus himself (consistent with what I said above).  The Qur'an calls Jesus "al Masih" nine times.  Again, that reflects that Qur'an's nontrinitarian Christian origins, which is why the Qur'an calls Jesus the Messiah and accepts his virgin birth, which would be unthinkable blasphemy by the rabbinical Jewish tradition, but well within the Christological disputes of pre-Nicene Eastern Christianity:

    Surah 4:171
        O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, ...

    Surah 5:75
        The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. ...

    Later Muslim exegetes would try to explain this away by arguing that "al Masih" just meant Jesus "annointed" the eyes of the sick that he healed.  That is a crude fallacy that highlights how uncomfortable later Muslims became with this overtly Christian and salvific terminology; they tried to redefine the Christian-ness away.
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #14 - August 23, 2014, 12:45 AM

    Btw, I can't resist pointing out that even the term "masih" is Syraic/Aramaic derived, from the Aramaic term "mesiha" -- not Hebrew.  The rabbinical Jewish term for "Messiah" would have been the Hebrew term "mashiach."  The Qur'an only uses the term "al masih," and it only uses it as the title for Jesus, with the definite article "al," pointedly "the Messiah."
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #15 - August 23, 2014, 08:51 AM

    Ad hoc responses here!

    So a legitimate translation of the koran would have the phrase "Jesus Christ" in it?

    I did not realise the koran accepted the virgin birth!  Does that not make Jesus a real son of God?

    On Hagarism, I thought it clearly proved two points - a real Samaritan - in contrast to Jewish - tradition, that down plays the Prophets, copied by Islam.

    A very significant influence from Judaism in Babylon - because the scholars there then were Jewish!

    I agree there are huge syriac aramaic christian (what sort of xian?) influences.

    My impression is that they all had huge influences.  The Jewish ones are downplayed because it is too difficult for Islam to accept.

    The Samaritan influences are down played because that is habitual.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #16 - August 23, 2014, 08:54 AM

    But Islam is not a product of Arabia.  I propose that Mecca and Medina had nothing to do with it!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #17 - August 23, 2014, 09:07 AM

    I suppose putting together a reasonably complete picture of what was going on in late antiquity is directly completely threatening to Islam's self image as the final revelation. 

    It is to be expected the various parts of this jigsaw will be attacked.  The snag is the tide is overwhelming. What was the real story of Knut again?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #18 - August 23, 2014, 09:45 AM

    For example

    Quote
    So ghusl is taken from jewish law as well then ?



    See Mikveh, the Jewish bathing ritual.
    Quote
    Its main uses nowadays are:

    by Jewish women to achieve ritual purity after menstruation or childbirth;
    by Jewish men to achieve ritual purity (see details below);
    as part of a traditional procedure for conversion to Judaism;
    to immerse newly acquired utensils used in serving and eating food.
    In Orthodox Judaism, these regulations are steadfastly adhered to, and consequently the mikveh is central to an Orthodox Jewish community, and they formally hold in Conservative Judaism as well. The existence of a mikveh is considered so important in Orthodox Judaism, that an Orthodox community is required to construct a mikveh before building a synagogue, and must go to the extreme of selling Torah scrolls or even a synagogue if necessary, to provide funding for the construction.[5] Reform Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism regard the biblical regulations as anachronistic to some degree, and consequently do not put much importance on the existence of a mikveh. Some opinions within Conservative Judaism have sought to retain the ritual requirements of a mikveh while recharacterizing the theological basis of the ritual in concepts other than ritual purity.




    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=11903.120

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: A prophet of God
     Reply #19 - August 23, 2014, 12:53 PM

    Ad hoc responses here!
    ...

    I did not realise the koran accepted the virgin birth!  Does that not make Jesus a real son of God?

    ....


    Quote
    the Qur’an, a text that explicitly denies that Jesus is the son of God.


    http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/11/reading-the-quran-through-the-bible

    Which is it?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #20 - August 23, 2014, 09:46 PM

    I think the conflict is artificial.  The Qur'an calls Jesus "the Messiah" and recognizes his virgin birth, miraculous abilities, and status as a messenger of God and prophet with the 'injil,' a holy scripture.

    But the Qur'an is schizophrenic as to *how* divine Jesus was; ultimately, it treats him as similar to Mohammed in the Muslim tradition, where you are technically not supposed to worship him (he was a messenger as other messengers), but on the other hand all his actions and words, even those not in the Qur'an, are divinely inspired (the Sunnah) or (in the older tradition) he is the righteously-guided ruler of the community who mediates/intercedes between God and humans.  Thus he is effectively divine and miraculous, but also not the proper subject of worship, as the divinity simply came THROUGH him, and is not a part of him.

    This, of course, is a common Christological position held by nontrinitarian Christians; in fact it is THE most common position that nontrinitarian Christians hold on Christology.

    But if Jesus was not himself God, then how could he save mankind?  By bringing the Gospel, the Injil holy book.  And how does that save mankind?  Because it consists of the core message of all true monotheism:  Allah is the only God, the bodily resurrection will happen, and the Last Judgment is at hand, when the unbelievers will pay.  This is how Jesus saved, by bringing this truth, and Jesus will preside over the Last Judgment (in Muslim tradition no less!!!) accordingly.  That Jesus is the Messiah who will return to rule over the world in connection with the Last Judgment is again a hangover from early Islam's Christian foundations that the later Muslim tradition never quite succeeded in suppressing.  Originally, I think that believers expected Jesus to return and the last judgment to begin when Mohammed conquered Jerusalem.  When that unexpectedly did not happen (Mo died), there was speculation that perhaps one of Mo's *children*, or one of the *rulers* of the believers, would somehow bring this to happen.  Abd al Malik doubtless thought of himself in this capacity, as Allah's representative (the caliph) who would usher in the end of days in connection with Jerusalem.  Likewise the doctrine of the "Mahdi" probably came from this theological-historical development.

    I repeat that an enormous part of why the Qur'an has been misunderstood is that the nature of Eastern Christianity and Judaic Christianity is simply not familiar to most people; they are only familiar with *Hellenic* Christianity, as expressed in the Nicene Creed and the Chalcedonian Creed (formally adopted in 451, less than 200 years before Mohammed's death no less).  There is an enormous history of "Lost Christianities," of which Mohammed's believers was essentially one.
  • A prophet of God
     Reply #21 - August 24, 2014, 09:21 AM

    I don't know that it is possible to argue Hagarism is wrong here.  What is happening is a torch has been shone on two roots - the Samaritans and the Jews.  The torch also needs shining on the various xianities and other roots!!

    I think it is unarguable there are very strong Samaritan Abrahamic possibly Northern Kingdom roots and Babylonian Judaism, but there are also a variety of christianities in this biryani!

    I wait for the book showing how christian Islam is!

    And then someone bringing it all together!  Possibly in a full commentary on the koran and hadith?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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