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Theme Changer

 Topic: Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate

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  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #30 - August 06, 2014, 05:31 AM

    ?  What do you mean number of planets?

    There are eight planets in the solar system.  Nowhere does the Qur'an say there are eight planets.

    The Qur'an does say (12:4) that Joseph dreamt that eleven planets were bowing down to him.  But this is because Joseph was *one of twelve brothers*, the Jewish ancestors of the twelve tribes of Israel, and he was dreaming the future in which his brothers would bow down to him.  This was not scientific, it was Jewish folkore relating to the twelve tribes of Israel.  The Qur'an is talking about how it is an Arabic language explanation of the meaning of these narratives, which its listeners are already familiar with.

    http://quran.com/12/1-7

    What that anecdote DOES show is that the author(s) of the Qur'an were familiar with the Jewish scriptures, citing this particular story, and those to whom the Qur'an was read were likewise already familiar with them.  Later Muslims, who knew much less about the Torah (since the Qur'an was now allegedly its superior, rather than an explanation/lectionary), didn't have a good understanding of WHY the number 11 was used in this aya.  Why?  Well, you'd have to know the Biblical background of this aya:  Genesis 37:5-10:

    5.  Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. 6 He said to them, “Listen to this dream I had: 7 We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it.”

    8 His brothers said to him, “Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?” And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said.

    9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

    10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?” 11 His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

    Contrary to later Muslim tradition which claimed that the Qur'an was delivered to pagan polytheists (by ignoring its Biblical context), Surah 12 is directed at people who are already familiar with this theological Jewish narrative -- which has NOTHING to do with science but rather everything to do with the twelve tribes of Israel and Joseph's story -- and is explaining its meaning in an Arabic language.  The author(s) of the Qur'an were highly literate in the religious texts and folklore of the Judaeo-Christian Near East.  But they knew nothing of science.


    I think our solar system have twelve planets. And what about embryology? I never said that he got his stuff right for which he was a genius or that he made the discoveries. I just said that he knew the potential of scientific knowledge to lend divine credibility to the Quran.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #31 - August 06, 2014, 05:33 AM

    There were alot of intelligent woman during his time, khadija, aisha
    lots of things aisha managed to get away with  Wink


    IMHO Aisha managed him with her beauty and youth while Khadija did it with her wealth, power and brain.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #32 - August 06, 2014, 12:18 PM

    I think our solar system have twelve planets. And what about embryology? I never said that he got his stuff right for which he was a genius or that he made the discoveries. I just said that he knew the potential of scientific knowledge to lend divine credibility to the Quran.


    If you don't mind, may I ask how old you are?

    As of 2014, our solar system has 8 planets.

    You are looking at this entirely wrong. Muhammad isn't saying anything that would have floundered his followers. Neither is it at all accurate to call anything in the Qur'an scientific.

    I asked you in a previous post to define what it means for something to be "scientific"? If you can, please do give me your definition since that is where your confusion lies.

    The so-called and touted embryology is just 2 or 3 very short sentences that says things like seminal-fluid becomes a blood clot. Or if you prefer the new dawahgandist interpretation, that there is a worm like thing in a mother's womb. If sentences like these can be called "scientific", then just about anything that has to do with the natural world can be called scientific and in which case one would also have to say that the Bible or the Vedas or the Gita are scientific. Such a usage effectively renders the word 'scientific" meaningless.

    P.S. Regarding embryology, I would recommend this site - http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/ (I am one of its authors).
    You may benefit from the following 2 sections
    http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/2012/08/ii-muhammads-plagiarism-hamzas-bad.html
    http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/2012/08/iii-conclusion.html
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #33 - August 06, 2014, 12:29 PM

    If you don't mind, may I ask how old you are?

    As of 2014, our solar system has 8 planets.   ................

    Hello captndisguise., what you said is perfect ., but that was not necessary .,   You know., "Age is very little to do with, how smart  we are and how much we know on a given subject.. "..

    any ways for that number planets/darf planets in solar system thing let me add this link .. http://www.space.com/16080-solar-system-planets.html

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #34 - August 06, 2014, 12:56 PM

    If you don't mind, may I ask how old you are?

    As of 2014, our solar system has 8 planets.

    You are looking at this entirely wrong. Muhammad isn't saying anything that would have floundered his followers. Neither is it at all accurate to call anything in the Qur'an scientific.

    I asked you in a previous post to define what it means for something to be "scientific"? If you can, please do give me your definition since that is where your confusion lies.

    The so-called and touted embryology is just 2 or 3 very short sentences that says things like seminal-fluid becomes a blood clot. Or if you prefer the new dawahgandist interpretation, that there is a worm like thing in a mother's womb. If sentences like these can be called "scientific", then just about anything that has to do with the natural world can be called scientific and in which case one would also have to say that the Bible or the Vedas or the Gita or scientific. Such a usage effectively renders the word 'scientific" meaningless.

    P.S. Regarding embryology, I would recommend this site - http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/ (I am one of its authors).
    You may benefit from the following 2 sections
    http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/2012/08/ii-muhammads-plagiarism-hamzas-bad.html
    http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/2012/08/iii-conclusion.html


    I am 24. However I should have made myself more clear. Muhammad included scientific stuff that weren't present in previous religious texts because they have not been discovered. You may disagree but I call them scientific. And by 'scientific' I didn't mean correct facts about nature. Sorry I forgot that planets Vulcan and X were hypothetical. But there are two other planets like Ceres and the other I forgot. So I mentioned 12. I found the above information last year and things may have changed by then.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #35 - August 06, 2014, 01:02 PM

    Quote
    Hello captndisguise., what you said is perfect ., but that was not necessary .,   You know., "Age is very little to do with, how smart  we are and how much we know on a given subject..

    any ways for that number planets/dwarf planets in solar system thing let me add this link"..


    I wasn't implying that at all nor was it in reference to knowing the number of planets or any other particular fact. I was, however, trying to emphasize on what science is. My dispute was with regards to the meaning of the word "scientific".

    When I was in my late teens, I had a very simplistic understanding of what science is and what it means to be scientific. Of course, there are many adults who don't know any better either. This simplistic understanding is what leads people to think verses in the Bible or the Quran are scientific which, in a circular way, they take it as some kind of authoritative position.

    Absolutely no offense was meant but in the future I will refrain from asking it. I only wanted to give the convo a personal touch, in case, the other person was young which means that their doubts/misconceptions are only natural and part of the learning process.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #36 - August 06, 2014, 01:11 PM

    Muhammad included scientific stuff that weren't present in previous religious texts because they have not been discovered. You may disagree but I call them scientific. And by 'scientific' I didn't mean correct facts about nature.


    It would still be helpful if you could actually define what it takes for a statement to be scientific.

    Secondly, what are these "scientific stuff that weren't present in previous religious texts because they have not been discovered"? Could you list them. And why have you restricted yourself to "previous religious texts"? Especially, since the non-religious pre-Islamic scientific texts are a much more pertinent source in the investigation of these claims.

    Before I left Islam, these claims were something I was obsessed with and upon researching I am yet to find any true claim that wasn't known already. If not religious texts, there are non-religious texts that have the information. For example, in the embryology link I posted, you can see the parallels to all the ideas in the Qur'an and Hadith in earlier Greek or Jewish sources.

    But I'll wait for you to list what you think wasn't already known.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #37 - August 06, 2014, 01:26 PM


    Before I left Islam, these claims were something I was obsessed with and upon researching..................


    Just a note captndisguise - ..

    That beautiful looking... blond hair ..."Hyper active" ... Rubaya  also left Islam  loong ago.. and she is wonderful person...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #38 - August 06, 2014, 02:35 PM

    Quote
    That beautiful looking... blond hair ..."Hyper active" ... Rubaya  also left Islam  loong ago.. and she is wonderful person...


     Smiley Not doubting that at all!
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #39 - August 06, 2014, 03:28 PM

    It would still be helpful if you could actually define what it takes for a statement to be scientific.

    Secondly, what are these "scientific stuff that weren't present in previous religious texts because they have not been discovered"? Could you list them. And why have you restricted yourself to "previous religious texts"? Especially, since the non-religious pre-Islamic scientific texts are a much more pertinent source in the investigation of these claims.

    Before I left Islam, these claims were something I was obsessed with and upon researching I am yet to find any true claim that wasn't known already. If not religious texts, there are non-religious texts that have the information. For example, in the embryology link I posted, you can see the parallels to all the ideas in the Qur'an and Hadith in earlier Greek or Jewish sources.

    But I'll wait for you to list what you think wasn't already known.



    Well it's my opinion that the embryological facts are biological and the thing that mountains prevent Earth shaking is geographical. So they are scientific, or at least that's what I think. I never said that the facts of the Quran never existed in any other previous texts. I said that they were, but not in Scriptures like the Bible. The Bible for example is silent on the aforementioned facts.

    And as I have said in OP that during Muhammad's time I think there weren't much scientific texts available in his land. So I was wondering where he learned all his stuff? So someone here replied that he might have learned it while travelling for business purpose. It seems right as his knowledge whether about Biblical or scientific matters are shallow. He didn't bother about studying them at all.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #40 - August 06, 2014, 03:35 PM

    I refer to previous Scriptures because they were compiled at times when these knowledge were unknown and when people believed more in supernatural happenings. Muhammad was clever in including more scientific facts in the Quran from other sources to show that he is a prophet of God. I think he was quite successful because most Arabs during his time were ignorant about them.

    And as for today many dawahgandists take advantage of the fact not many people are aware that all those scientific stuff were already discovered before the Quran was 'revealed'.

  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #41 - August 06, 2014, 03:37 PM

    Just a note captndisguise - ..

    That beautiful looking... blond hair ..."Hyper active" ... Rubaya  also left Islam  loong ago.. and she is wonderful person...


    Yeez I am not hyper active but hyper emotional. I am really lazy. And thanks for the compliment Smiley. I really appreciate it coming from you.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #42 - August 06, 2014, 09:15 PM

    Well it's my opinion that the embryological facts are biological and the thing that mountains prevent Earth shaking is geographical. So they are scientific, or at least that's what I think. I never said that the facts of the Quran never existed in any other previous texts. I said that they were, but not in Scriptures like the Bible. The Bible for example is silent on the aforementioned facts.

    And as I have said in OP that during Muhammad's time I think there weren't much scientific texts available in his land. So I was wondering where he learned all his stuff? So someone here replied that he might have learned it while travelling for business purpose. It seems right as his knowledge whether about Biblical or scientific matters are shallow. He didn't bother about studying them at all.


    Let me make 2 points

    1) There is good reason to think Muhammad was aware of Roman & Persian practices/ideas as evidenced in this hadith - http://sunnah.com/muslim/16/167.
    Thus, there is no reason to doubt that Muhammad could access Roman/ Persian knowledge

    2) IMO, this is the wrong and over-complicated way of looking at it. To explain, when you say something like the statement "mountains prevent Earth shaking" is Geography, this is the analogy I can think of. A person who lifted 1 dumbbell once in his entire life refers to it as his "bodybuilding career". By doing so, one is giving a false impression that is either over-exaggerating what the person did or rendering the word "bodybuilding" insignificant. So it is with referring to a statement like "seminal fluid becomes a blood clot" as embryology.

    Moreover, you should realize that it is only your assumption that Muhammad had to learn these from foreign lands. There are very good reasons to doubt this, namely, i) None of his followers express any confusion or ignorance about these verses about nature, ii) these verses are so simplistic that they may very well be the common beliefs of the time. Some evidence for this can be found in the Qur'an itself, for example the beginning of 22:5.

    So while you ask the question, "where he got these ideas from?", try pondering over the very-likely scenario that these ideas were part of the common knowledge-base of the society he lived in.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #43 - August 06, 2014, 09:30 PM

    I refer to previous Scriptures because they were compiled at times when these knowledge were unknown and when people believed more in supernatural happenings. Muhammad was clever in including more scientific facts in the Quran from other sources to show that he is a prophet of God. I think he was quite successful because most Arabs during his time were ignorant about them.

    And as for today many dawahgandists take advantage of the fact not many people are aware that all those scientific stuff were already discovered before the Quran was 'revealed'.


    It is almost like we read two entirely different books.

    The way you say it, one might expect to find some intricate details from Aristotle or Euclid or Ptolemy etc that would not have been known by an average person. Except I have never found anything remotely close to that. Rather it is always statements like "the sun is swimming in the sky" or "the mountain are pegs to keep the land from moving" or "the sky is held up by non-visible pillars".

    These are the kind of conclusions that a very ignorant person comes to just by looking at the world around him and therefore these are the kind of conclusions you can expect a tribal society deep in the deserts to have. I am yet to find any statement in the Qur'an that its author could only know by reading or knowing about Greek or Persian science (let alone modern science as per the dawahgandists). Which is why I consider the questions of "where did Muhammad learn?" to be wrong before it even begins.

    Well anyways, I don't want to barrage you anymore. This already seems like overkill. At least, you understood my perspective even if you disagree.
  • Re: Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #44 - August 06, 2014, 10:03 PM

    But there are two other planets like Ceres and the other I forgot. So I mentioned 12. I found the above information last year and things may have changed by then.


    Ceres like Pluto is a dwarf planet. There are at least 4. 6 in total, other bodies under this classification with Ceres being one of the smaller ones.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #45 - August 06, 2014, 10:06 PM

    Let me make 2 points

    1) There is good reason to think Muhammad was aware of Roman & Persian practices/ideas as evidenced in this hadith - http://sunnah.com/muslim/16/167.
    Thus, there is no reason to doubt that Muhammad could access Roman/ Persian knowledge

    2) IMO, this is the wrong and over-complicated way of looking at it. To explain, when you say something like the statement "mountains prevent Earth shaking" is Geography, this is the analogy I can think of. A person who lifted 1 dumbbell once in his entire life refers to it as his "bodybuilding career". By doing so, one is giving a false impression that is either over-exaggerating what the person did or rendering the word "bodybuilding" insignificant. So it is with referring to a statement like "seminal fluid becomes a blood clot" as embryology.

    Moreover, you should realize that it is only your assumption that Muhammad had to learn these from foreign lands. There are very good reasons to doubt this, namely, i) None of his followers express any confusion or ignorance about these verses about nature, ii) these verses are so simplistic that they may very well be the common beliefs of the time. Some evidence for this can be found in the Qur'an itself, for example the beginning of 22:5.

    So while you ask the question, "where he got these ideas from?", try pondering over the very-likely scenario that these ideas were part of the common knowledge-base of the society he lived in.


    Yeah, and what's odd to me is that no non-Muslims seem to care about this.  It's not like non-Muslims are being converted by Dahwaganda based on these points.  Non-Muslims universally find these claims of 'scientific' prophecy to be completely silly; if you tell a non-Muslim that the Qur'an is scientifically miraculous because it says there are 12 planets in the solar system, they would think you've lost your mind -- there aren't 12 planets (there are 8 planets, and hundreds/thousands of dwarf planets aka planetoids), and even if they were, what would be miraculous about the Qur'an repeating the exact same number used in Genesis and already bandied about the Middle East for well over 1000 years before Islam came about?  Genesis would be the scientific miracle here, and the Qur'an's recitation of the Genesis story would just be a weak copy.

    To me, these arguments about the Qur'an's alleged scientific insights are an issue that Muslims and ex-Muslims like to engage with, but almost no non-Muslim ever takes it seriously at all.  The Qur'an gives a vague recitation of general beliefs that had prevailed in the region for thousands of years; not only are these beliefs not scientifically meritorious, they aren't original in any meaningful sense.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #46 - August 07, 2014, 02:06 AM

    Quote
    To me, these arguments about the Qur'an's alleged scientific insights are an issue that Muslims and ex-Muslims like to engage with, but almost no non-Muslim ever takes it seriously at all.  The Qur'an gives a vague recitation of general beliefs that had prevailed in the region for thousands of years; not only are these beliefs not scientifically meritorious, they aren't original in any meaningful sense.


    It is understandable. It is very easy to manipulate people's thoughts especially when language is misused. Muslims grow up being told that the verses in the Qur'an are "scientific". In their schools and universities, they learn that being "scientific" is good. They put the two together and come to the conclusion Qur'an is good because it is "scientific". Of course, the main point that was missed in the exercise is checking what "scientific" means and whether it means the same in both contexts (which it clearly doesn't).

    Thus, it is also understandable that ex-Muslims may also fall into that circular reasoning if they don't question basic terminology and premises. It is one of the greatest problems I faced. It wasn't until I learned to be skeptical of language use that every became clear.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #47 - August 07, 2014, 04:19 AM

    I actually want to know something. As a child(and even now) everyone always said that Islam encourages Science and that scientists are placed as high as sheikhs and stuff. How much is that actually highlighted in the Qur'an and hadiths, and how frequently, and was there a certain time period when it started being highlighted?(I'd assume it was towards the later days after Mo'd already taken over a fair amount of land)

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #48 - August 07, 2014, 11:20 PM

    Quote
    I actually want to know something. As a child(and even now) everyone always said that Islam encourages Science and that scientists are placed as high as sheikhs and stuff. How much is that actually highlighted in the Qur'an and hadiths, and how frequently, and was there a certain time period when it started being highlighted?(I'd assume it was towards the later days after Mo'd already taken over a fair amount of land)


    There is a lot to consider when answering this.

    First of all, let's think about what you said;

    Quote
    As a child(and even now) everyone always said that Islam encourages Science and that scientists are placed as high as sheikhs and stuff.


    This is just the product of polemics. The people who say haven't investigated the matter in any detail but the belief is assuring to have so they accept it.

    The ones who make a tiny attempt at investigating the claims stop early on. WIth their simplistic understanding, they will see that in the 7th century there was Islam and in the 10th-14th, there is something called the "Islamic Golden Age" (a title I disagree with) and then with the help of the post hoc fallacy, they arrive at the conclusion Islam encourages/causes science.

    This is an entirely polemical/ apolegetic stance that doesn't have much merit. The following is a good presentation on the topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH595DMVs-E

    as well as

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAi6QkUOFvU

    Now on the other hand, you can ask whether Islam is inherently anti-science or pro-science. In my opinion, the best way I can make sense of it is by saying that Islam is only pro-Islam and only accepts the science that is acceptable within it. Hence the resistance in accepting biological or human evolution. If on the other hand, the science is either consistent or irrelevant to Islam, it doesn't seem to discourage the study of science.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #49 - August 07, 2014, 11:45 PM


     They spent so much money, effort and so many conferences that 1001 inventions  really needs a special folder in CEMB.. I wonder whether any of  you guys    have a link that  lists of 1001  inventions?

    oops sorry http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=21847.0   it is already there..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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