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Theme Changer

 Topic: Worshipping a calf

 (Read 4059 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Worshipping a calf
     OP - December 06, 2014, 08:11 PM

    According to Quran 2.51 to 2.55

    51: Moses away for 40 nights, Israelites worshipped a calf
    52: Allah pardoned them
    53: Moses was given The Book
    54: Moses told the naughty Israelites off for worshipping the calf
    55: Israelites demanded to see Allah with their own eyes and were struck with lightening

    But according to Quran 4.153 the Israelites demanded to see Allah and then worshipped the calf.

    Has anyone here seen any apologetics for this?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #1 - December 06, 2014, 08:21 PM

    No but I can guess what it will be:

    The Qur'an came to correct the mistakes/corruptions of the previous revelations.
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #2 - December 06, 2014, 08:24 PM

    Must admit there have been times when I've been inclined to worship some nice calves.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #3 - December 06, 2014, 09:35 PM

    I showed it to the husband. His immediate suggestion was that, due to how the Quran was compiled and arranged, it might just be an issue of someone having put the verses in the wrong order. When I asked if this was still possible considering that the contradictions were neatly contained within two full verses, and he couldn't think of a good answer for it. But he was astonished and said, "I don't understand these people who read the Quran every day and study it, how do they not notice that mistake?" Neither of us ever noticed it before, ourselves!
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #4 - December 06, 2014, 10:05 PM

    That's a good one! I never caught it.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #5 - December 07, 2014, 12:09 AM

    No but I can guess what it will be:

    The Qur'an came to correct the mistakes/corruptions of the previous revelations.


    They are both from the Quran.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #6 - December 07, 2014, 12:10 AM

    btw, I have a few of these; you will get to hear them on the 19th of December Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #7 - December 07, 2014, 12:46 AM

    Must admit there have been times when I've been inclined to worship some nice calves.

    You are showing your age! Cheesy

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #8 - December 07, 2014, 12:50 AM

    The word 'thumma', as well as every other word in the quran, means whatever an apologist wants at any given time. Consult Adnan Rashid for wisdom on this topic.
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #9 - December 07, 2014, 06:04 AM

    the other thing is, does anyone else realise that Allah is referring to the jews who rejected Muhammad as the same jews who worshipped the calf? anyone else find it strange?

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #10 - December 07, 2014, 07:45 AM

    You are showing your age! Cheesy

    What does age have to do with liking a good pair of legs?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #11 - December 07, 2014, 12:37 PM

    a random muslim's thoughts on it
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FizQhDkrfFk
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #12 - December 07, 2014, 02:29 PM

    Seems to be private?
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #13 - December 07, 2014, 02:37 PM

    try now
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #14 - December 07, 2014, 02:47 PM

    Works now. So basically changing the meaning of thumma, like you said.

    But it doesn't necessarily have to be in regards to when they asked to see God--it is also out of order in reference to when the lightning strikes, which is harder to separate into two different events.
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #15 - December 07, 2014, 05:16 PM

    I am part of the way through Surah 11. The Quran is riddled with inconsistencies. I am looking forward to discussing them on the 19th of December with AllTruthRevealed, curious to know how he will try to excuse them.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #16 - December 07, 2014, 05:45 PM

    Ratty ...



    ... you are a star!

  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #17 - December 07, 2014, 11:28 PM

    That's a really nice star pic! What is the subject?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #18 - December 08, 2014, 04:12 AM

    According to Quran 2.51 to 2.55

    51: Moses away for 40 nights, Israelites worshipped a calf
    52: Allah pardoned them
    53: Moses was given The Book
    54: Moses told the naughty Israelites off for worshipping the calf
    55: Israelites demanded to see Allah with their own eyes and were struck with lightening

    But according to Quran 4.153 the Israelites demanded to see Allah and then worshipped the calf.

    Has anyone here seen any apologetic for this?

     

    Couldn't this contraction be fixed if you re arrange the verses surah al baqara like this ?

    55: Israelites demanded to see Allah with their own eyes and were struck with lightening
    51: Moses away for 40 nights, Israelites worshipped a calf
    54: Moses told the naughty Israelites off for worshipping the calf 
    52: Allah pardoned them
    53: Moses was given The Book
     
    So it's consistent with 4.153 and can be explained away as the compilers making an error when choosing the order of the verses.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #19 - December 08, 2014, 10:34 AM

    That's a really nice star pic! What is the subject?


    No idea, was looking for pictures of stars, for you!
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #20 - December 08, 2014, 08:44 PM

    In fairness to the Qur'an, the chronological account given in Exodus is incredibly contradictory -- this is one of the main points where modern Biblical criticism was born, Exodus gives several different accounts of Moses getting the 'law' from Yahweh, and all of them conflict with each other in many details.  Exodus even states two completely different versions of the 10 Commandments.

    So the Qur'an's authors were understandably confused by the chaotic Exodus narratives about the law being given to Musa; if Exodus itself is incoherent on this point, why should the Qur'an have coherent chronology?  Another Qur'anic example, in Surah 7:155 (right after the golden calf discussion, and after Musa delivers the ten tablets to the people), Musa randomly picks 70 men "for our appointment" who Allah then shakes (just terrifies? kills via earthquake? unclear, translations all differ) for no apparent reason, with no follow up explanation given.  What is this doing here?  Who are these 70 men anyways?  Why is Allah terrifying/killing them? 

    Actually I think it surely comes from the 70 Hebrew elders identified in Exodus 24, which in the Biblical account precedes the golden calf narrative and the deliverance of the tablets; these 70 men, confusingly, not only are part of the delivery of the law to Moses, they actually see the God of Israel face to face, contradicting many other passages in the Bible.  Because the Exodus 24 account conflicts with later accounts in Exodus, people do not usually remember this episode.  Here it is.  Note the incredibly contradictory chronology -- Moses is reading the narrative, and the people accept the law, and then AFTERWARDS he goes by himself up the mountain.  This after the elders had all met with the God of Israel face to face, formed a blood covenant, and ate and drank with him.  The entire narrative is awesomely composite and contradictory, and the rest of Exodus is just as bad.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+24

    The Qur'an seems uncertain about this Exodus chaos, as is understandable (who wouldn't be uncertain?), but nonetheless feels compelled to mention the 70 men and their earth shaking episode, now presented as some obscure parable about Allah's forgiveness; Allah could have killed the 70 men (for some unstated reason), but did not, and is therefore merciful.  Why the earth shaking?  I think it probably relates to 7:143, where Musa is rendered unconscious at his "appointment" by the shaking mountain that accompanies the revelation.  In earlier contexts when these stories were told, the 70 men probably were understood to have been rendered unconscious along with Musa by Allah's earth-shaking revelation at the "appointment" mentioned in 7:143, since these 70 elders had accompanied Musa to see Yahweh consistent with the account in Exodus 24 (that is where they came from, after all).  But the final Qur'anic narrative, losing the plot on the relevance of the 70 men, did not grasp how the 70 men fit in with Allah's revelation to Musa (now it is only Musa alone who met with Allah), so all that is left is a disconnected episode in which a random 70 men are shaken for no apparent reason after Musa took them to an 'appointment' that remains unclear and which came after Musa already delivered Yahweh's law -- thereby somehow illustrating Allah's forgiveness.
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #21 - December 08, 2014, 10:34 PM

    Isn't it possible to work out the relationships between the Exodus (and other?) stories and the quran, and how they ended up as they did?

    Was it a teaching aid, an attempt to summarise and translate for barely literate preachers?  What was going on?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Worshipping a calf
     Reply #22 - December 08, 2014, 11:21 PM

    I'm not entirely sure tbh.  The sense I get is that everybody in the region had generally heard of all these stories and knew about them, but wasn't uber-knowledgeable about the precise details.  They were just kind of common parlance.  Even if you didn't consider yourself a "Jew," for example, you would certainly have heard all the big Jewish stories, and generally given them some credence.  Just as a 2nd Century Palestinian Jew, in turn, would have heard the major Greco-Roman pagan stories.

    The Qur'an has the feeling of a sermon given to people who are assumed to already know these Biblical stories, and it is primarily a commentary based on reminding the audience about what they already know, not a re-telling.  Qur'an 7 is not purporting to be the be-all and end-all retelling of the Exodus narratives about what happened on Mount Sinai.  It's just making a point by referring to them.  That is why it is famously not interested in giving historical narrative, or precise description of the stories ... it just cares about the theological point it's making.  It would be as if I was to talk about Noah and the Ark as showing God's providence -- we wouldn't need for everybody in this thread to go pick up Genesis and re-read that story in order to comment about it.
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