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 Topic: Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz

 (Read 2160 times)
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  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     OP - March 23, 2016, 02:41 PM

    An interesting article by Maajid is making the rounds today. I know we've talked quite a bit here around whether or not Islam can be reformed, and indeed, what constitutes "Islam" in the first place.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/23/reform-muslims-stand-up-to-take-on-the-ideology-of-islam.html

    Quote
    Across the world, Ex-Muslims and liberal, reforming Muslims are more openly claiming their right to challenge taboos within our own communities, and public discourse is ever so slowly catching up with the fact that being a conservative Muslim is not the only way to be a Muslim. Media are realizing that just because Islamist sympathizers shout the loudest, this doesn’t mean they should be heeded any more than anyone else, if at all.
    But here’s the bad news. Arab democrats and reformers’ biggest success to date, has also been their biggest failure. The Arab Uprisings were not sparked by Islamists – they initially caught them and everyone else totally off guard – but by democrats. For a brief period, for just a few months, it was suddenly chic to be an Arab democrat in a Kufiyyeh scarf calling for change.

    And then the despots took their revenge.

    Human Rights fare worse now under Egypt’s military ruler Sisi, than when Mubarak imprisoned us. Syria speaks for itself.
    Those positive shifts in the community have also not gone unnoticed among Islamists, and conservative Muslims. Each grouping is feeling the heat of reasserted enlightenment values by Reform Muslims, and has doubled-down, retreating further into their entrenched positions while targeting nascent liberal Muslim activists as a way to further establish their legitimacy.

    Islamists were always going to be the enemy of reforming Muslims, and the eventual rise of ISIS was an inevitable consequence of decades of our Islamist priming. But in an increasingly identity-driven atmosphere fuelled by Regressive Left apologists for Muslim extremism, and by Populist demagogues too, conservative Muslims – who used to hate Islamists above and beyond all else – have been aligning with them on issues such as blasphemy, as a way to compete for the heart of Muslim identity.

    As the aftermath of these devastating attacks in Belgium unfold, and we witness something akin to a jihadist guerrilla war on European soil, we must recognize that this is an ideological struggle before it is a military one.

    Ten years ago, many on the liberal left used to deny any such thing as Islamist extremism existed. For them, this was nothing but a “neo-con” line taken from the worst excesses of the Bush years. But as jihadist attack after jihadist attack came, those same liberals slowly, reluctantly, took to limiting the problem to ‘violent extremism’, using phrases such as ‘al-Qaeda Inspired Extremism’, without realizing that it was not al-Qaeda that inspired extremism, but it was extremism that inspired al-Qaeda.

    We must finally come to terms with the fact that we are in the midst of a generational ideological struggle to distinguish Islam as a faith from the political ideology of Islamism and its violent manifestation, jihadism. Islamism has taken hold in our communities. As with fascism before it, this struggle will involve all of society, not just its Muslims or non-Muslims. Everyone must stand together to discredit the ideology of Islamism, and to reform Islamic discourse today. We require a whole-of-society approach. Our aim must be to render the Islamist ideology as unattractive as fascism has now become.
    And to the insurgent anti-Muslim Populists currently riding a wave of fear in Europe, while asking in exasperation: where is Islam’s reform?
    To you I say: if my own change – and those of many others – over this last decade demonstrates anything at all, let it show you that we Muslims are in the thick of this reform, and our very own 30 Years War. Do not miss the wood for the trees. Reforming Muslims need your help, not your hate.

  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #1 - March 23, 2016, 03:35 PM

    At least Maajid and the guys at Quilliam ally with exmuslims.


    The clowns at orgs like MPV (Muslims For Progressive Values) say exmuslims are playing into the hands of the taliban by criticizing islam and refer to all conservative interpretations as "wahhabi".

    Like the guys at MPV and its affiliates are so damn ignorant of islam they will call any mainstream interpretation of islam "wahhabi" even though that particular group might be vocally against salafis.

    They will call guys from hizb ut tahrir wahhabi salafis for example......

    A representative of their canadian branch even said something along the lines of Muhammad was really good friends with the polytheists.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #2 - March 23, 2016, 05:16 PM

    For ex-muslims and progressive Muslims, the alliance is an existential one. Violent, fundamentalist Muslims seek to eradicate these and all other such heresies, and of course it makes sense to stick together in the face of that.

    Still, I think it makes sense to mention and highlight the fundamental difference in approach that an ex-muslim and a progressive muslim takes. The choices made are different and the means and end goals will be as well. The expansion of the secular space is one that benefits both, but in the end, as an ex-muslim, it doesn't matter to me whether Islam is "reformed" or not. It's adherents just need to respect our fucking space. And this is becoming an apparent issue for many people throughout the world, not just us ex-muslims.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #3 - March 23, 2016, 09:02 PM

    I go one step further. I will not prop up your superstitions whatsoever.

    There is no Allah. Not even a liberal one.

    Muhammad was not a 'progressive' and was reprehensible in some respects.

    Islam is not only deeply flawed, but deeply undesirable as a social, economic, political system. There are better systems out there, but they are not 'Islam'. They are, in fact, mutated versions that are only 'Islamic' by name.

    I would rather Islam-lite as opposed to the more authentic Islam. But I will not prop up a 'reformist' agenda that doesn't want to tackle the fundamentals of the faith.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #4 - March 24, 2016, 06:08 AM

    I go one step further. I will not prop up your superstitions whatsoever.

    There is no Allah. Not even a liberal one.

    Muhammad was not a 'progressive' and was reprehensible in some respects.

    Islam is not only deeply flawed, but deeply undesirable as a social, economic, political system. There are better systems out there, but they are not 'Islam'. They are, in fact, mutated versions that are only 'Islamic' by name.

    I would rather Islam-lite as opposed to the more authentic Islam. But I will not prop up a 'reformist' agenda that doesn't want to tackle the fundamentals of the faith.


    I tend to agree. But is it really the way forward to say that Islam is just rotten to the core?

    It's not as if Islam is going away any time soon. To say it's just all bad seems to just further alienate the Muslims that actually hold 21st century values.

    I'm not really arguing with you here. Just thinking out loud.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #5 - March 24, 2016, 06:11 AM

    Also, what's the difference between wahabbi and salafi? I've generally just heard them as synonymous with a strict, harsh interpretation of Islam.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #6 - March 24, 2016, 08:00 AM

    Trying to put a label distinguishing Muslims, and by that attempting to discredit certain groups from representing "real Islam", from other Muslims in this context is futile. Take for example salafis; a group I myself found to be amidst for almost a decade; there is not one salafi ideology. There are several subgroups, all identifying as salafees but who all have clear and sometimes fundamental differences (hence why the salafi community is not always so harmonious). Sometimes, "regular" conservative and/or fundamentalist Muslims are labeled  wahhabi/Salafi. Then we have the salafi type who refuses to identify as salafi. "We are only Muslims who follow the sunnah of the Prophet and the four blah blah blah". And so on. Labeling, trying to discern "true" Islam, is a fool's job. There is no "real" Islam. The Islam during the 7th century is far removed from what we had during the 8th, 10th, and definitely from what was happening in al Andalus or IS in today's Shaam. We have Islams, just like we have Christianities.

    I don't think we can "reform" Islam. Protestantism is a reform of Christianity (more specifically, the Catholic church). And believe me, Protestantism isn't that nice and pretty as some would think (especially us, who have today's Scandinavian version of it, think it's the "nice" version of Christianity). It isn't. What can be done, though, is reforming Muslims.

    Today's Christians, those who aren't crazy bigots, ignore the nasty parts of the Bible and stick to the nicer ones. They also, maybe without knowing it, take influences from other faiths, philosophies, and such. That's when you end up with a personal faith that gives you comfort while not having the need to shove it down someone else's throat. That's when you have a personal god whom you pray to, without having the need to drag said god into the political arena. That's when you get 21st century Christianity that cares more about fundamental principles like goodness, generosity, charity, and love. And not so much about chastity and honour, crusades, hellfire, and sticking to the rules and laws of the Middle Ages.

    Of course, I might be exaggerating a tiny bit. Perhaps even romanticizing in order to get my point through. However, the biggest, and perhaps even only, reform Islam needs is for Muslims to accept that the Quran is not the literal and unchanged word of god. Until then, trying to reinterpret and engaging in mental gymnastics will continue to be a fool's job. Meanwhile, groups like IS and others to come will only grow in our polarized and unfair world we live in. Accepting the Quran to be a historical, maybe even "inspired", piece of (man-made) work will allow Muslims to reform and make a better Islam(s). It is also the hardest and most difficult task.

    And somehow I'm glad to be an ex-Muslim who no longer has the need to struggle for my faith and religion. It is liberating, but at the same time immensely worrying since I, being the occasional pessimist I am, can't see the only needed reform happening anytime soon.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #7 - March 24, 2016, 08:49 AM

    I tend to agree. But is it really the way forward to say that Islam is just rotten to the core?

    It's not as if Islam is going away any time soon. To say it's just all bad seems to just further alienate the Muslims that actually hold 21st century values.

    I'm not really arguing with you here. Just thinking out loud.


    No, I was careful to say that Islam was all bad. Saying it is undesirable as a whole doesn't mean I ignor the positive aspects of it.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #8 - March 24, 2016, 08:53 AM

    I agree CF.

    I would oppose any labels and say I was a Muslim. It was others that labelled me as a. Sunni, then salafist, then Wahhabi and finally all-e-Hadith. That's why I argue that though there might not be a 'true' Islam we can accept that there are authentic elements of Islam that most groups share and distinguish that from the BS that the reformists tend to spout and claim as Islam. Denial is a dangerous game.

    I would like to add that I am for tackling racism and mischaracterisation of Muslims as violent, misogynistic and subservient. I support any endeavour. I accept, on reflection, the tone I employ may be harsh in some places. I am only expressing the frustration when trying to engage with Islam and all you get is misdirection from some reformists whose 'Islam' takes liberties with the Quran and Hadith if not ignores it.

    And when we speak of 'reform' whose reform are we talking of? Most of the modern, liberal reformist movements are nothing like that of allamanda Iqbal. At least Iqbal retained a great deal off authentic Islam. True, there were a handful in say Egypt, Iran and Morocco but they were mainly feminist readings that supplanted the patriarchal readings and thus recognised that Islam was authentically patriarchal. But the modern reformist crowd denies a whole lot more of the authentic Islam that it shuts most reasonable debate on what Islam is. This denies the muslims who do interpret Islam literally and counter reform their agency. 'Reform' is called reform for a reason. They are changing the essence of Islam and not tackling the root causes of supernatural ism, infallibility, inerrancy and other such prehistoric nonsense that not only stifles academia but also the advancement of societies.

    We must tackle the fundamentals of Islam.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #9 - March 24, 2016, 02:47 PM

    ...............We must tackle the fundamentals of Islam. .............


    well... yes.,        .....We must tackle the fundamentals of Islam. ....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDQLmggacpk

    that is from yesterday Jedi ., and it was on Pakistan Television... see how much confusion is there in fundamentals of  Islam??

    So how many fundamentals or fundamental statements we have in Islam? Nex question is bit simpler

    If you are the leader who is allowed to choose ONLY ONE OF THOSE FUNDAMENTALS  and eliminate that ........and and preach to eliminate that fundamental in Mosques every Friday and talk about it with in  family, day in day out ....... that  will change the face of  Islam and consequently  helps Muslims folks to live as Muslims with their head high dear  Jedi??


    This American  guy is a son of a   Muslim guy whose Mother was Muslim  ., Muslims,converted Muslims.,Zebras can learn a lot from him..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reform Muslim - Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #10 - March 25, 2016, 05:21 PM

    No, I was careful to say that Islam was all bad. Saying it is undesirable as a whole doesn't mean I ignor the positive aspects of it.


    I guess I didn't mean all bad. But Seemed you meant it is far more bad than good and this is insurmountable.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
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