Hi, Ex Muslims! I'm here to learn.

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- Ad Astra
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Hi, Ex Muslims! I'm here to learn.
OP - March 22, 2015, 02:23 AM

I'm a lucky girl. I was raised by parents who considered themselves Christians, but we didn't go to church and they hardly ever talked about God or Jesus and weren't literalists. They didn't believe the miracles in the Bible... I think they were more deists, like Thomas Jefferson, than real Christians.

I was a very young child when I started questioning the existence of God. My Mom tried to convince me there was one, but I found the flaws in her arguments. I told her that I'd have to wait to make up my mind until I knew enough. She agreed that no one should believe in something until they're honestly convinced. My dad and maternal grandparents were all on board with that.

So the problems of people whose families don't have that respect for the need for rational conviction, intellectual honesty and integrity are outside of my personal experience. But they're not outside of my imagination.

I've come to the CEMB website to learn as much as I can from people who have lived as part of the Muslim community, who have firsthand knowledge of how various Muslims think, how they use their minds, how they rationalize, the range of what Muslim individuals actually believe about their religion. How do non-political Muslims deal with the morally appalling parts of the Koran and the traditions of Mohammad?

I figure that I'm more likely to get the straight dope from ex-Muslims, who've been there, done that, and now reject it, than those Muslims who are still believers with all their baggage, plus taqiyya and kitman.

Whenever I listen to Muslims trying to explain away the terrible parts of their religion, I get such a sense of slippery bullpoo, I'm never sure whether they really believe it or are just telling the kafir a pretty story to protect their religion from disdain and hostility.

I became interested in Islam back in 1979, when I started reading newspaper articles about what was happening in Iran. I'd never paid attention to Islam before, and was appalled to read that Iran's government was imposing religious rulings on the Iranian population that amounted to religious totalitarianism.

The Ayatollah Khomeini also announced that he wanted to spread this strict Shi'ite government throughout the Islamic world and then everywhere else. He wanted to bring down Israel and the United States. I saw Khomeini's ambitions as possibly the next totalitarian Big Bad, and decided I needed to learn about the religion that inspired him. So I started reading.

Well, I was right about Islamic Supremicism being the next Big Bad, wasn't I? I hate when I'm right like that. Yeah, yeah, I feel very smart about it, but there's not a lot of comfort in that.

Now I'm trying to get my mind around how the free world can successfully protect itself against the ambitions of Islamists. And how we can hack our way through the politically correct jungle that stands in our way.

I want to understand not only the dangers to liberty posed by the Muslim communities in our midst, but the struggles of the Muslims among us who *don't* want Shariah law and who don't support jihad. How do we protect ourselves against the threat without violating the rights of the harmless? How do we tell a harmless Muslim from a
threat? Is that even possible?

I regularly read the comments on anti-jihad websites. Opinions vary on the subject of how to protect ourselves from the ambitions of political Islam, especially in places like the UK where Islamist efforts have made big inroads. But it seems to me that the worse things get, the more people I see believing that drastic steps are necessary - things like rounding up *all* Muslims and sending them back to their country of origin (or their families' countries of origin).

I think there are plenty of rights-respecting ways to squash political Islam, to make it toothless within our free societies without taking steps that step outside of the rights we aim to protect.

I hope to find input here at CEMB about all of the above important topics, input that I probably can't get anywhere else. I'm aiming for the most comprehensive understanding of what the free world is facing, what apostates are facing, and the various perspectives within the Muslim community - the real perspectives, of real people trying to live with this thing called "Islam".
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Reply #1 - March 22, 2015, 02:23 AM

Welcome.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #2 - March 22, 2015, 03:01 AM

Welcome!

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Reply #3 - March 22, 2015, 04:09 AM

Welcome! You should jump in and join the discussions. I think by now pretty much everything that has to do with Islam has been discussed on this forum at least once in detail, so definitely checking out old threads might have a lot of information for you.

I'd recommend checking out the CEMB Twitter Blogs board, and also there's a CEMB Greatest Hits Thread somewhere around here. If you want to learn about what it's like for apostates or what issues they're dealing with and so on, those are good places to start.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=56.0

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=12698
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Reply #4 - March 22, 2015, 04:51 AM

The Ex Muslims of North America has a blog site that is an excellent resource for people who want to know what it's like to live as an exmuslim.

http://www.exmuslimblogs.com/

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #5 - March 22, 2015, 07:53 AM

Hi and welcome
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Reply #6 - March 22, 2015, 11:17 AM

'How do non-political Muslims deal with the morally appalling parts of the Koran and the traditions of Mohammad?'
The same way that Christians do with the Old Testament, they ignore it.

'I figure that I'm more likely to get the straight dope from ex-Muslims, who've been there, done that, and now reject it, than those Muslims who are still believers with all their baggage, plus taqiyya and kitman.'

No, you're just more likely to find people who are sympathetic to your views, you might even find a few who are equally 'worried' about things the right wing press love to talk up, like taquiya etc. The 'straight dope', if you haven't worked it out yet after three decades, is that all religion is bollocks and makes people do terrible things. The answer is not to wage a personal vendetta against one religion, unless of course you have another reason to.

Ha Ha.
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Reply #7 - March 22, 2015, 11:54 AM

Welcome to the forum Ad Astra, have a rabbit!

Second the sources lua and TDR pointed out to you, and in addition I'd say if you want a random sample of stories that ex-muslims have gone through, there's no better place than looking through the intro board you've posted in!

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Reply #8 - March 22, 2015, 12:50 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on March 22, 2015, 11:17 AM
'How do non-political Muslims deal with the morally appalling parts of the Koran and the traditions of Mohammad?'
The same way that Christians do with the Old Testament, they ignore it.

'I figure that I'm more likely to get the straight dope from ex-Muslims, who've been there, done that, and now reject it, than those Muslims who are still believers with all their baggage, plus taqiyya and kitman.'

No, you're just more likely to find people who are sympathetic to your views, you might even find a few who are equally 'worried' about things the right wing press love to talk up, like taquiya etc. The 'straight dope', if you haven't worked it out yet after three decades, is that all religion is bollocks and makes people do terrible things. The answer is not to wage a personal vendetta against one religion, unless of course you have another reason to.

Funnily enough I never heard of taqiya from Muslims around me. The first time I heard of it was from a non-muslim and ever since then I've only seen them bring it up.
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Reply #9 - March 22, 2015, 02:00 PM

"Funnily enough I never heard of taqiya from Muslims around me. The first time I heard of it was from a non-muslim and ever since then I've only seen them bring it up."

Same. And it's funny how they speak about it, as though there's no equivalent in the western world - like no one tells lies to advance their position outside of Islam! And almost always, those that bring taquiya up are coming from a right wing, Islamaphobic angle.

Ha Ha.
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Reply #10 - March 22, 2015, 02:23 PM

Quote
'How do non-political Muslims deal with the morally appalling parts of the Koran and the traditions of Mohammad?'
The same way that Christians do with the Old Testament, they ignore it.

Also worth noting that many of the ones you find in America, at least, actually aren't aware of too many problems in the Quran or the hadith.

Just like it's easy to grow up here hearing that God loves everyone and Jesus was a really cool guy and the Bible is a book full of acceptance and love, Muslims can be raised not having really read the Quran the whole way through, or critically in their adulthood, and perhaps the first time they hear about some of the more disgusting hadith is when someone who is criticizing Islam shoves it in their face.
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Reply #11 - March 22, 2015, 03:25 PM

"and perhaps the first time they hear about some of the more disgusting hadith is when someone who is criticizing Islam shoves it in their face."

Very good point, how true.

Ha Ha.
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Reply #12 - March 22, 2015, 05:20 PM

Thanks everybody. I appreciate your replies.

Jack - if my decades of reading lots of books on the subject of Islam hasn't given me an objective or full picture of the real thing, I figure coming to this forum will help clear that up for me. (I don't trust any press, right wing or otherwise, to give me sound, substantial information. At least books go into some depth.) I want the most accurate, objective, most comprehensive view I can get. I did not come here to have my pre-existing views confirmed. I actually did come here to learn, just like the thread title says.

The edge in your "voice" suggests you think you know what kind of person I am, but you've made a wrong assumption.

It seems to me that people who have been part of a religion and then left it might be in an excellent position to see things more objectively than people still within the religion. They have parents and siblings, friends and relatives who are still Muslim, people they know well and love. They know Muslims first-hand, they know the various attitudes people have.

Instead of sticking mainly with books, I thought it would be good to talk to some actual people who have lived with the religion, people who aren't academics or researchers or journalists, but who have a personal grasp of the real, human situation in all its variety.

Naturally, all my reading has made me aware of the concepts of "taqiyya" and "kitman". How am I to find out whether these concepts are commonly known and followed among many serious Muslims or not if I don't bring the subject up to ex-Muslims? That's exactly the kind of thing - because of its very nature - that if a believer told me it's not generally known or accepted I wouldn't know whether to believe it or not. If an ex-Muslim tells me he's never heard of "taqiyya", I figure he has no reason to lie about it. He has no reason to protect the religion.

I don't know what I'll learn from the ex-Muslims on this forum. Whatever is, is. And I hope coming here will help me get closer to the whole truth and nothing but the truth of what is.

As to the destructive potential of religions, yes, any doctrine that demands that people not question its premises, that puts faith in prophets as infallible revealers of the Will of God, and demands that people subvert their reasoning faculty to accept the fantastic and unproven leaves an irrational gate open for people to believe anything and do terrible things. But at present it's Islam that has a scary number of followers doing terrible things in the name of the religion, so that's the one I've wanted most to understand. If I were living at a time when Nazis were the "Big Bad" of the day, I'd be devouring books on that topic. If Christians were trying to set up a totalitarian state somewhere in the world and were proclaiming that they intended to spread it around the world, I'd be reading up on that, trying to learn all I could about it. Because such movements, if allowed to grow unopposed, pose a threat to everybody's freedom.

But I want to get the *whole* truth and nothing but the truth.
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Reply #13 - March 22, 2015, 06:31 PM

Hi Ad Astra,

Yes, there is such a thing called Taqiyya in Islam, but it is certainly not a key doctrine nor taught widely - most Muslims have never heard of it - including practising Muslims!

I was a practising Muslim for almost 50 years. I studied Islam deeply and taught it at an Islamic School. I only ever came across the word a couple of times the entire 50 years and it was only in relation to the Shia where the doctrine developed as a perfectly understandable reaction to the persecution by the Sunnis throughout various periods in history.

It is simply a license to hide ones faith in order to preserve life and limb.

It has however today become a buzzword used by the far-right and Christian-right in America and favoured by people like Robert Spencer, Pamella Geller and Geert Wilders.

They not only regard it as a key and widespread doctrine that is taught to practicing Muslims, but they have also widened its meaning to include lying to promote Islam, i.e. lying not just to save one's life & liberty, but to present a good image of Islam and deflect criticism.

Taqiya in this sense does not exist. It is a creation of such people.

That is not to say there are not many lying Muslim apologists, but they are not following a doctrine with a funny name - they are just slimy lying bastards. Of which there are many amongst all people - particularly apologists for religion - whatever religion.

By accusing Muslims of Taqiyya, one is saying that Muslims are "uniquely" dishonest and can't be trusted in general. This blankets Muslims as a whole. This is why it is wrong to use such a term.

This is a quote from one of our members who put it well:

Quote from: lua on March 17, 2015, 03:47 PM
...when it's dishonesty in the career and business practices of white folks, that's just part of the dog-eat-dog territory and almost viewed in a positive light. When poor old Christians are doing doublespeak, it's just them being delusional or defending their religion against attack to the best of their ability. When someone from the West lies, they're just dishonest. But if a Muslim does it, it's Taqiyya. It's his culture to do that taqiyya.

This is why I hate the use of this word. You can't divorce yourself from this charge of taqiyya. People in general are dishonest as fuck, but it has a name and it has a background when it's taqiyya, it conjures a mental image of potential offenders based on clothing, on race, on their country, and it's used to promote suspicion of huge groups of people, and even honest ones get caught up in it. Lying is human, but a lying Muslim is on another level, those mysterious, untrustworthy others, part of a hive-mind, practicing the dreaded taqiyya.

And finally here's a video - I hope all that helps - and welcome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjZSJg1HQpc
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Reply #14 - March 22, 2015, 06:50 PM

"But I want to get the *whole* truth and nothing but the truth. "

Hey Ad,

I always have an 'edge' in my 'voice' don't worry, it's a pre-existing medical condition brought on by a *misanthropic thyroid gland.
I probably did assume a bit too much, it's just that as soon as a non-muslim brings up something like taquiya as soon as they can, 9 times out of 10 it is because the person using the term is of the type mentioned, so my apologies if you're not a white supremacist in flowing white robes

I suppose I'm a bit confused as to why you (or anyone) thinks understanding Islam will help you get your head round current events in the world. I understand your point about Islam being a more 'active' religion, thanks to what's going on in the mid-east, and terrorism elsewhere, but I'm not sure it's possible to really understand their reasoning/logic, and how much does it help to 'understand' them anyway, for me, as soon as I get to the part about cutting heads off and blowing people up I already made my mind up, there's nothing more I really want to know about what makes those stupid fuckers tick (pun not intended), if you follow. But each to their own, as Baghdadi doesn't say.

*To be a misanthrope, contrary to popular belief, does not mean a dislike of people, it describes one who has lost all faith in mankind.

Ha Ha.
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Reply #15 - March 26, 2015, 05:43 AM

Jack said: "I always have an 'edge' in my 'voice' don't worry, it's a pre-existing medical condition brought on by a *misanthropic thyroid gland."

Okay, now you're cracking me up.

"I probably did assume a bit too much, it's just that as soon as a non-muslim brings up something like taquiya as soon as they can, 9 times out of 10 it is because the person using the term is of the type mentioned, so my apologies if you're not a white supremacist in flowing white robes,"

I accept your apologies. And thank you.

And no, no white robes. I go in more for sunhats with eccentric decorations pinned on them. My husband used to wear a cape and carry a little dog, but he doesn't do that anymore. He still wears the tights, though.

The white robes really wouldn't go with my mental style: I gather information from as many sources as I can, I see how it fits together, look for contradictions, ask every question I can think of, turn the information this way and that, look for holes in my knowledge, keep alert for any disconcerting information that might make me have to rethink something. And with that standing order to be ready to re-examine in the light of new information, it's an ongoing process.

It's not a policy that guarantees that I can't make errors of knowledge or logic, that I can't erroneously, at a given point, think I know enough to draw a conclusion. But it does guarantee that I'm not closed to new information. I want to get it right.

So, no, I'm not the person in the flowing white robes. The above mental policy is way different from the white sheet mentality.

Jack said: "I suppose I'm a bit confused as to why you (or anyone) thinks understanding Islam will help you get your head round current events in the world. I understand your point about Islam being a more 'active' religion, thanks to what's going on in the mid-east, and terrorism elsewhere, but I'm not sure it's possible to really understand their reasoning/logic, and how much does it help to 'understand' them anyway, for me, as soon as I get to the part about cutting heads off and blowing people up I already made my mind up, there's nothing more I really want to know about what makes those stupid fuckers tick (pun not intended), if you follow. But each to their own, as Baghdadi doesn't say."

I started reading up on Islam, as I mentioned in my first post, because of the establishment of a religious state in Iran and the statements made by the Ayatolla Khomeini about his intent to spread Islamic rule far and wide.

Why would I think that understanding Islam would give me insight into the aims and motivations of fundamentalist Islamic theocrats and those that follow them? Why would I think that understanding what they believe in might give me an idea of what such believers might do next?

Because religious fundamentalism takes its religious texts literally and doesn't tend to moderate the meaning they take from them in the light of new information or even in the light of reason. Fundamentalism throws aside any reasonable adjustments some people have made in order to make their religion align with a sensible morality. It doesn't take the miraculous stories as metaphors, but takes them literally. And it doesn't say: "Well, this bit... it's pretty awful. God couldn't possibly have meant that, because it's so irrational and unworthy of a god. Maybe it was put into the literature by a naughty person." It says that what is written is the truth, the will of God, and we should strive to follow it to the letter and not dare to doubt.

The most powerful influence in a religion is the ideal man, the most perfect human example of the religion's ideals. The Perfect Example embodies by his deeds the ideals you're to embody yourself. So if you want to see what kinds of things the most literal-minded, unquestioning followers think they should do, you learn about the stories they have about their most perfect example.

So that's why I started to read up on Islam. I figured that if Islamic fundamentalism was going to be a growing thing, and if the likes of Khomeini were going to try to spread it further than Iran, it would be a good idea to know what example he and other fundamentalists would be following.

As to what is drawing fighters to groups like the Islamic State, I'd say it's what the fighters believe Islam is about. But another question is: why do those people want to believe that?

What people believe and why they believe it are not insignificant questions. If they believe something that is deadly to the freedom of the human mind to explore and question and dissent, and if they believe it strongly enough to act on it, you need to understand it if you're going to fight it most effectively. You need all the weapons in your arsenal that are appropriate to the fight.

If one is going to fight against a movement that wants to destroy liberty and impose its dogmatic ideology on mankind, how can a person not be interested in the ideology that motivates and sustains them?
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Reply #16 - March 26, 2015, 05:58 AM

Ooops. I forgot to thank people for the parrots. Thanks!

And Asbie, thank you. I think I will have a rabbit.
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Reply #17 - March 26, 2015, 07:37 AM

Khoemeni is the leader of Shia Muslims and his opinion only holds weight for them. He doesn't matter much to the majority of Muslims i.e. Sunnis especially the fundamentalist kind.

Oh and out of curiosity, what is Kitman?
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Reply #18 - March 26, 2015, 11:51 AM

Khoemeni is not the only one to mix religion with politics. It is throughout Islamic history especially during the Caliph eras, ambiguous the term may be.
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Reply #19 - March 29, 2015, 08:12 AM

Welcome, Ad Astra!

I had never heard of taqqiya before Geert Wilders mentioned it and that goes for a lot of Muslims I know.
And I'm also curious as to what kitman is (but not so curious that I want to Google it, lol).

On topic: I don't know if I agree with you.

Quote
Well, I was right about Islamic Supremicism being the next Big Bad, wasn't I? I hate when I'm right like that. Yeah, yeah, I feel very smart about it, but there's not a lot of comfort in that.

What makes you say that Islamic Supremacism is the next Big Bad? I can think of a few things but I don't want to influence your opinion.
To be clear: I'm not denying Islamic Supremacism is a problem. 'Lord' knows I do. I'm just curious why you think it is THE biggest problem.

Quote
Now I'm trying to get my mind around how the free world can successfully protect itself against the ambitions of Islamists. And how we can hack our way through the politically correct jungle that stands in our way.

'the free world'?
The free world where black people and other immigrants have an increased chance of getting incarcerated for the same offense as white people? The free world where women and especially women of color, and LGBTQ still get paid less than white men? The free world where a whole nation speaks up when you try to question blackface, but the same outrage is lacking when a member of parliament makes a moneydeal with a criminal? (Holland) The free world where the whole world comes together to support Charlie Hebdo, while at the same time being best pals with Saudi Arabia who flogs bloggers (Raif Baidawi) and locks up human rights activists (Souad el Shammary?

I think the free world is a farce and Islamic Supremacism is one of the smoke screens.

The future is full of thrilling possibilities.
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Reply #20 - March 29, 2015, 10:16 PM

Quote from: YinYang on March 26, 2015, 07:37 AM
Khoemeni is the leader of Shia Muslims and his opinion only holds weight for them. He doesn't matter much to the majority of Muslims i.e. Sunnis especially the fundamentalist kind.

Oh and out of curiosity, what is Kitman?

Hi, YinYang.

I know Khomeini wasn't/isn't an authority for Sunni Muslims, but I didn't know that back in 1979, when the Khomeini's faction took over, which is when I started reading up on the religion and what was going on in Iran. It was news accounts of what was going on in Iran at that time, and Khomeini's statements, as well as information and commentary in the news, that led me to want to learn more. Back in 1979 I didn't know anything about Islam, except that Mohammad was the founder of the religion.

It was the rise of religious fundamentalism and it's obtaining political power, a totalitarian grip, over the Iranian people, and the aims proclaimed by Khomeini that alarmed me, because fundamentalists (of any religion) are the most driven by their religion, in a literalist, unmodified way. Those who are imbued with the idea that their god is telling them to impose their religion by force of law aren't the kind of people who are easily discouraged because... God's Will. So when I saw that happening, I expected that it wouldn't go away soon.

Of course, since then we've become aware that fundamentalist Shi'ite Islam isn't the only fundamentalist Islamic sect that has ambitions to spread and to rule through brutal imposition.

"Kitman" is lying by omission and ambiguous statements. Hassan has corrected me regarding taqiya - that it's only to be used to protect oneself from persecution by enemies, not to promote the religion. "Kitman" is undoubtedly in the same category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitman
http://www.nairaland.com/809331/taqiyya-kitman-muslims-permitted-lie
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Reply #21 - March 30, 2015, 02:05 AM

I don't think anyone uses the word ¨kitman¨. Well, not anyone I ever knew.

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Reply #22 - March 30, 2015, 07:53 AM

Welcome to council!
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Reply #23 - April 21, 2015, 12:17 PM

Quote from: Hassan on March 22, 2015, 06:31 PM
Hi Ad Astra,

Yes, there is such a thing called Taqiyya in Islam, but it is certainly not a key doctrine nor taught widely - most Muslims have never heard of it - including practising Muslims!

I was a practising Muslim for almost 50 years. I studied Islam deeply and taught it at an Islamic School. I only ever came across the word a couple of times the entire 50 years and it was only in relation to the Shia where the doctrine developed as a perfectly understandable reaction to the persecution by the Sunnis throughout various periods in history.

It is simply a license to hide ones faith in order to preserve life and limb.

It has however today become a buzzword used by the far-right and Christian-right in America and favoured by people like Robert Spencer, Pamella Geller and Geert Wilders.

They not only regard it as a key and widespread doctrine that is taught to practicing Muslims, but they have also widened its meaning to include lying to promote Islam, i.e. lying not just to save one's life & liberty, but to present a good image of Islam and deflect criticism.

Taqiya in this sense does not exist. It is a creation of such people.

That is not to say there are not many lying Muslim apologists, but they are not following a doctrine with a funny name - they are just slimy lying bastards. Of which there are many amongst all people - particularly apologists for religion - whatever religion.

By accusing Muslims of Taqiyya, one is saying that Muslims are "uniquely" dishonest and can't be trusted in general. This blankets Muslims as a whole. This is why it is wrong to use such a term.

This is a quote from one of our members who put it well:

And finally here's a video - I hope all that helps - and welcome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjZSJg1HQpc

Hmmm to go more specifice on the topic

I think Teqiya is widely known among Shia people, so they study this concept..its true this concept has came out as a result of sunni presecution to them

in short, Shia have a known doctrin of lying for goodness which called Teqiya, while Sunni doesn't have such public doctrin, they do practice it in other way, like they will gone have some lies to concvince non-muslim to be a muslim, and I myself has attend a muslim forum about making Dua for non-muslim..it was advised for them its Ok to lie for the seek of converting them

hope this help
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Reply #24 - April 26, 2015, 12:38 PM

welcome, were u raised in the USA?
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