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 Topic: Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..

 (Read 8108 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     OP - June 12, 2015, 08:16 PM
    Children,  Schools,  Islam and London.. There you go..



    Quote
    [LONDON: A primary school trust in east London banned Muslim pupils from fasting on school grounds during Ramazan, reported The Telegraph. The Barclay Primary School, which serves London's Leyton area, told parents in a June 10 letter:

    "We have sought guidance and are reliably informed that in Islamic Law, children are not required to fast during Ramadan," adding that previously, children at the school had fallen ill, fainted, or been "unable to fully access the school curriculum in their attempts to fast."

    Quote
    The school said it believed the health of children could suffer if they were deprived of sustenance and water. The Muslim Association of Britain criticised the school for its decision, saying it was not the school's place to interfere, and that the rules in place to protect those vulnerable from fasting were "sufficient". "We believe that there are sufficient and stringent rules within Islam which allow those who are unable to fast, to break fast," a spokesman told Mail Online.

    "These rules include those who are medically ill or compromised; or too young or too old to fast. "However, we believe that this determination should be decided by parents with their children; who can together reach a collective decision whether or not the child can fast. "MAB ascertains that the final choice of whether or not to fast should be the right of the parents, who should in turn encourage their children to fast without forcing them to do so."

    MAB President Dr Omer El-Hamdoon said parents should have a say in whether or not their child fasts. "Schools should play a supporting role to parents; and issues like this should be discussed, not blanket enforced," he said.


    The Chief Executive Officer of the school trust, Justin James, while responding to criticism said that the school was attempting to balance its obligations under child safety while continuing to work with the communities the school served. In a statement published online, however, James says that parents who want their children to fast should contact the school to make specific arrangements.

    "No child will be considered to be able to fast in school unless you have met with the Head of School," the statement said. "We have proudly worked and supported all of our communities across one of the most diverse and dynamic parts of London. "The team and I appreciate how important this time is to all our Muslim families and we welcome working closely with you to get the best possible outcome for everyone – children, parents and the wider school community."[/img]



    and here is the picture of that letter..  https://twitter.com/ShirajShiraj/status/609100048782254080/photo/1

    well that is the news..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #1 - June 12, 2015, 08:36 PM
    ^
    I call blatant Islamaphobia Wink
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #2 - June 13, 2015, 12:33 AM
    Quote from: Doubting Tomas on June 12, 2015, 08:36 PM
    ^
    I call blatant Islamaphobia Wink

    Hello DT......I don't care about Islamophobia  s long as people don't have Muslim phobia  and question wherever they see such phobia.,   that is good enough for me.,  Now as far as using/abusing primary school children  for  religious rituals is concerned  that need to stop in pubic schools  which  are run by tax payers money
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #3 - June 13, 2015, 01:16 AM
    Clearly from the winking smilie face I jest, primary schools are no place for young kids to do without lunch and water.
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #4 - June 13, 2015, 02:38 AM
    So this is a public school? I don't think children should be fasting but this school is out of line in banning kids from fasting Ramadan.
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #5 - June 13, 2015, 03:40 AM
    Quote
    We have sought guidance and are reliably informed that in Islamic Law

    Why is a London school giving a flying fuck about islamic law in the first place?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #6 - June 13, 2015, 03:47 AM
    Why is a London school giving a flying fuck about islamic law in the first place?

    Well, if a school decides to impinge on its students religious freedom, it might as well be nice about it.
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #7 - June 13, 2015, 03:50 AM
    If it is indeed true that
    Quote
    previously, children at the school had fallen ill, fainted, or been "unable to fully access the school curriculum in their attempts to fast."

     then it has nothing to do with religious freedom.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #8 - June 13, 2015, 04:01 AM
    Not all kids faint, I unfortunately went to an Islamic school and was forced to fast and it was fine. Even if students do faint, the school does not have the right to ban them from practicing their religion because there is such a thing called parental authority. Parents decide what their children do or do not eat, so if a Muslim parent wants their kid to fast, that should be within their right.
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #9 - June 13, 2015, 04:07 AM
    No one is saying it isn't the parents right, unless there's a part I missed about stopping them from fasting outside of school.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #10 - June 13, 2015, 04:14 AM
    This is a public school, right?? So parental rights and religious freedom are principles that should be accommodated, within reason of course. At least that's how I see it. I think issues like this are why a lot of Muslims are Republicans, or at least used to be.
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #11 - June 13, 2015, 04:18 AM
    You can only accommodate so far. If something is interfering with a child's education, the school has no choice but to try and solve that.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #12 - June 13, 2015, 04:21 AM
    FREEDOM
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #13 - June 13, 2015, 04:36 AM
    We of course don't have true freedom. We give people certain rights that have limits, the limits usually ending where another person's rights begin. There are certain actions a parent can do with their child that will result in that child being taken away from them. We also set limits on religious freedoms, again in the context that your freedom ends where another person's freedom/rights begins. Someone's religious beliefs may dictate murdering people for being gay or leaving the faith. We've said no, you do not have that right no matter what your religion states.  Obviously this is nothing so extreme, but education isn't only a right, it's a requirement. It will impact that child for their entire lives. The religious freedom of parents has to be balanced with the rights of the child and the duties and obligations of the school.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #14 - June 13, 2015, 04:47 AM
    "The religious freedom of parents has to be balanced with rights of the child."

    Parents have the right to indoctrinate their children into their faith. There is a thin line between imparting your religious doctrine and child abuse, refusal to vaccinate I think falls into the latter. But I personally don't think fasting is that big of a deal. So glad I don't have to do it this year!


  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #15 - June 13, 2015, 04:49 AM
    If it interferes with their schooling, it becomes a matter for the school.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #16 - June 13, 2015, 09:09 AM
    In loco parentis.  The school also has a clear duty of care.  In fact, parents are at risk of prosecution for child abuse.  Religious freedom?  Right of the child.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #17 - June 13, 2015, 09:13 AM
    .

    Religious freedoms are always subsidiary to other rights, and do not apply with children.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #18 - June 13, 2015, 01:13 PM
    Quote from: Doubting Tomas on June 13, 2015, 01:16 AM
    Clearly from the winking simile face  ...

     Cheesy Cheesy    I know I know ..   there are so many winkers and wankers in this forum  readers get terribly confused what people are writing DT   Anyways., it is very important social subject as it deals with under age kids where one  can mould  kids behavior/thinking.. So let me read some folks what they said on that news..
    Quote
     Totally supportive of with the ban. Pre-teen children should not be allowed to fast. If they want to try, weekends are the best option.......... MEHMOOD

    Interesting position. They do have a point if students are fainting etc. then they need to consult with the parents and maybe set an age limit?  ..SAAD

     Islam came down to make things easier not harder. Roza in England will be close to 19 hours long. We need to understand the spirit of fasting better than just fasting blindly. School has every right to do so. Jolly good. Good show  ...MAGISTER

    come live in pakistan if you want to fast so badly ... AZEEM

    Totally agree with the ban. Children don't really know what as-Saum is supposed to be. They confuse it with fasting. Fasting is not what we do in Ramadan; instead its as-Saum. So why make a child suffer when he doesn't even know what as-Saum is? ...SALMAN

    The parents should consider moving to Saudi or Iran..... MOHAMAD USA

    Quote
    Totally ludicrous, do they stop Christian children from fasting lent? A school should not have the right to interfere with one's religious observances. Rather than accommodating them, they make it a case of one or the other. For steadfast Muslims that is not a choice at all and will lead to marginalisation. It would have been better to support those children that fast by lightning their loads for that one month and increasing it after Ramadan.

    On the positive side, it is a nice initiative, but we have got to remember, the children that learn to fast at a younger age find it easier when they grow up. Where as if this behavior is not inculcated at a younger age than it is hard to fast as an adult and easy to make excuses for not fasting.

    In conclusion extremes should be avoided in both secularism and religiousness, after all that is path the good Book preaches!! ..............SHAHBAZ KHAN


    Alhamdulillah I too am a Muslim. But I fully agree with the policy of school Management and disagree with those who say that this matter should be left on the will of parents. There are some ignorant, extremist and hardliner parents or guardians who persuade and encourage the children to fast or follow religious rituals at the cost of their physical fitness needed for better performance in school studies and general health. Though they have been allowed exemptions in Islam. The school management should be appreciated for giving the parents option to personally talk to them if they want their child to fast. .........BIN ADAMabout  

    See the change...  World is moving.. moving fast,... I see the world of change ...   All those replies are from Here  there are more at that link over 160..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #19 - June 13, 2015, 02:02 PM
    Lets keep in mind the school acts as a guardian for the state and students are their wards. Thus any school accepts a level of responsibility for their wards including their health. I would have liked to see reports, as claimed, of students falling ill during fasting. A report covering grades during fasting in which a decline in the performance of their students is noticeable. I would like to see a wavier absolving the school of it's guardian responsibilities during fasting as an alternative. Perhaps with is what the article was talking about when talking to the Head of School. However there were no details.

    There can be a compromise but it must state the burden is on the parents. So they can not sue the school if their children's health or grade suffer.
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #20 - June 13, 2015, 02:27 PM
    If there's a wavier absolving the school of it's guardian responsibilities you can bet the kids will be pissed when they realise they can't get into the universities they want and so may not be able to have the careers they want. It'll limit them needlessly for the rest of their lives.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #21 - June 13, 2015, 02:31 PM
    Yes it will just as many choices parents make limit their children. However maybe it will drive home that being a parent does not by default make one a good parent. This is the double-edged sword of religious freedoms. People are allowed to make stupid choices based on their religion that effect more than just themselves. Parents have the right to teach their children about their religion. 

    It is not what I want as a solution. It is the solution I think that would work out best given that people make stupid choices. If were up to me I would have removed many of the religious exemption from law a long time ago. Perhaps the children later in life will realize that religion should be a concept for adults rather than indoctrinating their children at a young age.

  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #22 - June 13, 2015, 02:43 PM
    Disagree. The school taking action is the best thing for the students. Their futures and their children's futures shouldn't be sacrificed to drive home a point. That simply makes them sacrificial lambs through no fault of their own, simply to spite their parents. It's a repulsive idea.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #23 - June 13, 2015, 03:12 PM
    Quote from: curiousarabgirl on June 13, 2015, 04:21 AM
    FREEDOM


       What 'freedom' does a seven year old have ?
    They're being ordered to fast by their parents.
    Schools and teachers these days are held responsible for all sorts of things , you can't blame the school for taking steps to protect their pupils well being
      Maybe eating less would be a good idea for a lot of us in this country , but young children need sustenance. And sleep - presumably they're all being woken up at dawn to eat. And the ban on drinking I find really worrying
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #24 - June 20, 2015, 10:51 PM
    Must everything be so...complicated. Ugh I got a headache hahaha

     parrot

    ^ A.ww.w.w so cute omgawd I wanna hug it.
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #25 - June 22, 2015, 03:03 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 13, 2015, 02:43 PM
    Disagree. The school taking action is the best thing for the students. Their futures and their children's futures shouldn't be sacrificed to drive home a point. That simply makes them sacrificial lambs through no fault of their own, simply to spite their parents. It's a repulsive idea.


    Problem is the state uses gloves when it comes to religion picking it's battles lest it offend people's sensibilities too far.
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #26 - June 24, 2015, 12:08 AM
    ^ I agree.

    I really think there should be ONE style of school for all students. Everyone is taught the same subjects. NO students are subjected to any particular ideology. NO more gender schools. I'm against gender schools mainly because I feel boys and girls should learn to communicate with each other. I'm not merely talking about speaking and listening. It is more about understanding the opposite gender and being ale to see issues from their perspective.

    All students should, IMO, be exposed to as many world views as possible including religious/non-religious, to help them prepare for the "real" world.

    I feel like Islamic schools are dividing communities so they should not exist just like Christian/Jewish schools. However, if this were to happen, it needs to be done slowly as big changes may scare people.
  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #27 - June 24, 2015, 02:16 AM
    There are already issues with courses which are already taught. People complain about sex ed preferring abstinence education. However in this has been proven to be a failure sine the highest teen pregnancy rates are found in conservative religious areas. People complain about biology courses since it is indoctrination of the "secular ideology" and "evolution". It is conflict of interests. The state wants a level of education for it's population while parents want to teach their religion and it's values to their children. One must override the other. Education vs freedom of religion.

  • Children, Schools, Islam and London.. There you go..
     Reply #28 - June 30, 2015, 07:10 AM
    Quote from: bogart on June 22, 2015, 03:03 AM
    Problem is the state uses gloves when it comes to religion picking it's battles lest it offend people's sensibilities too far.

    That's not an argument for sacrificial lambs, it's an argument for the PC twats to grow a spine.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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