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 Topic: how other religions treat their scriptures

 (Read 8307 times)
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  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     OP - May 28, 2015, 02:51 PM

    I am interested to know how other "liberal" religions movement consider the status of their scriptures, I read somewhere that Jews don't consider their scriptures infallible ?

    as far as i know in Islam there is a very fringe minority that consider Muhammed is the author of Quran and thus some teaching can be only applied to his time.

  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #1 - May 28, 2015, 03:17 PM

    ...............................

    as far as i know in Islam there is a very fringe minority that considers Muhammed is the author of Quran  and thus some teaching can be only applied to his time...............


    I don't get that hatoush..

    1). what country and which Islam  what fringe minority considers Muhammed as  the author of Quran?

    2). You mean to say some teaching can be only applied to his(Muhammad's) time??

    well we can go on add many  sayings to  that.,  

    "some Islamic  teaching can be only applied to   Muhammad's time?
    and some teachings were for the times of  those "Rightly guided Caliphs".,
    and some for Jews
    and some for Christians
    and some for idolaters
    and some for Medieval Islam .,
    and some for colonial times
    and some for 2nd world war
    and some for American hegemony
    and some for after 9/11
    And some for present times..
    And some for future times..
    and some for after death.
    and so some for hell and some for heaven....."

     
    well we can add more hatoush

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #2 - May 28, 2015, 03:26 PM

    I meant at least some Muslim scholars consider the quran a human product, I know at least Mohammed akroun and Abdolkarim Soroush, I assumed at least there are some Muslims who sympathies with their views.

    i don't think in 1.6 Billion Muslims, only me and Hassan think that the Quran is not infallible  grin12
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #3 - May 28, 2015, 03:32 PM

    ...............

    i don't think in 1.6 Billion Muslims, only me and Hassan think that the Quran is not infallible  grin12


    I am not sure when you started thinking Quran is fallible., but i know  Hassan  used to  think that way some 8 years back hatoush.

    any way let me read this first..  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC126866/pdf/0042.pdf

    progress is made...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #4 - May 28, 2015, 11:01 PM

    Over a thousand years ago Aelfric of Eynsham was asked to translate the first six books of the bible from Latin into his native old english so that the common people would be able to read it. He writes a prefix to his translation expressing his misgivings:

    Quote
    Now it seems to me, friend, that the work [of translation] is very dangerous to me or anyone to undertake, because I fear that if someone foolish reads this book, or hears it read, that someone might wish to think that one might live now under the new law just as the old fathers lived, when in the time before the old law was established, or just as people lived under the law of Moses.


    ...and he goes on to point out examples of people having multiple wives and handmaidens, and various instances of sibling or father-daughter incest in these first books of the bible, practices which would certainly not have been acceptable in his time and culture. He also goes on to say:

    Quote
    We also said before that the book is very profoundly spiritual in understanding and we will write no more than the naked narrative. Then it seems to the unlearned that all that meaning is locked up in the simple narrative, but it is very far from it.


    So in short the bible isn't considered by Aelfric as the literal infallible word of God that should be literally emulated at all times and in all respects, but rather something which has to be interpreted by those with learning to draw out the 'spiritual' meaning.

    There is a strand of evangelical christianity which does take the bible as the literal word of god rather than 'inspired by god'. But this isn't typical of christians through the ages.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #5 - May 28, 2015, 11:59 PM

    I don't think any mainstream Christian denomination takes the Bible as the literal word of God.  The minority sects that do are considered a bit weird and scary even by their fellow Christians. 


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #6 - May 29, 2015, 05:19 AM

    Evangelicals are not a minority in America, it is the second largest group right after Catholics. Evangelicals are by large literalists as they developed many of the current hermeneutical approach used by inerrantists and literalist. There are a few semantic tricks used but it results in the same product. They are not a large group outside of America as their puritan background has firmly placed a displaced fundamentalism group which lost it influence in Europe and migrated to areas not directly under the thumb of Europe due to distance.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #7 - May 29, 2015, 08:46 PM

    The problem with Christians in the US is that if you surveyed them there is huge number of them that don't regularly associate with any "church" or congregation. For them it is simple enough to say they are Christians regardless of the fact that Christian means Christ like and would thus include having and working on having knowledge and traits that would enable you to be Christ like.

    I don't think any mainstream Christian denomination takes the Bible as the literal word of God.  The minority sects that do are considered a bit weird and scary even by their fellow Christians. 



    So there would be many claiming to be Christian with very little regard for or knowledge of what the Bible actually says.

    Another group of Christians who discredit the Bible as not being the word of God are those who are mislead by the great apostasy.  (This was foretold in the Bible to be occurring  from the death of the Apostles until the end) Some of these people are mislead, some simply don't care as their way of life and tradition is enough for them.

    Another problem is in the fact that the Bible has both literally true accounts, figurative language,  and symbolic accounts.  So there have been people who for various reasons have misused the writings in the Bible. Some have done it for their own purpose to control and oppress people. In some case the misuse was more like a mistake out of lack of knowledge due to so many conflicting ideas. For yet others it is more like  an anticipation of things to come like thinking false labor is real and will bring the child.

    But of people who actually read the Bible and aren't  compiled by some out ulterior motive  there is a belief that it is an inspired book. (although the percentage of earth's population that is religious based on God  and the Bible opposed to spiritual is decreasing)

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #8 - May 29, 2015, 09:02 PM

    Wow, welcome back Lynna.  Smiley

    Do you think that the bible is the "word of god", or an "inspired book"? For me these two phrases would have very different meanings, and the distinction between the two is at the center of the discussion.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #9 - May 29, 2015, 10:30 PM

    Hey Lynna great to see you again Smiley
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #10 - May 29, 2015, 11:03 PM

    Do you think that the bible is the "word of god", or an "inspired book"?

    I have never met a Christian who thinks the Bible is the word of God. It doesn't even pretend to be. Inspired book, yes.

    (Inspired by the glories of nature that man strove to make sense of.)
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #11 - May 30, 2015, 01:11 AM

    The problem with Christians in the US is that if you surveyed them there is huge number of them that don't regularly associate with any "church" or congregation. For them it is simple enough to say they are Christians regardless of the fact that Christian means Christ like and would thus include having and working on having knowledge and traits that would enable you to be Christ like.

    So there would be many claiming to be Christian with very little regard for or knowledge of what the Bible actually says.

    Another group of Christians who discredit the Bible as not being the word of God are those who are mislead by the great apostasy.  (This was foretold in the Bible to be occurring  from the death of the Apostles until the end) Some of these people are mislead, some simply don't care as their way of life and tradition is enough for them.

    Another problem is in the fact that the Bible has both literally true accounts, figurative language,  and symbolic accounts.  So there have been people who for various reasons have misused the writings in the Bible. Some have done it for their own purpose to control and oppress people. In some case the misuse was more like a mistake out of lack of knowledge due to so many conflicting ideas. For yet others it is more like  an anticipation of things to come like thinking false labor is real and will bring the child.

    But of people who actually read the Bible and aren't  compiled by some out ulterior motive  there is a belief that it is an inspired book. (although the percentage of earth's population that is religious based on God  and the Bible opposed to spiritual is decreasing)


    Leviticus is one example in regards to homosexuality. The common verse used here is actually talking about sacred sex not about men having sex. Sacred sex being having sex as a form of worship which was found in surrounding religions.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #12 - May 30, 2015, 01:50 AM

    I haven't read the book in years. Was that in reference to Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #13 - May 30, 2015, 02:29 AM

    I am interested to know how other "liberal" religions movement consider the status of their scriptures, I read somewhere that Jews don't consider their scriptures infallible ?



    "Jews" is too broad a term. Many Orthodox Jewish groups do consider the scriptures more or less infallible--they are infallible but human interpretation/understanding of them is fallible, so you must read the scriptures in the light of the writings of the sages--mostly by that they'll mean the Talmud. But other Jewish groups don't really care what the scriptures say. They know there are a lot of rules, but most of the people in those movements that have been in them for several generations don't know what the rules are, nor do they care. Rules aren't part of their identity as Jews.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #14 - May 30, 2015, 08:31 AM

    They know there are a lot of rules, but most of the people in those movements that have been in them for several generations don't know what the rules are, nor do they care. Rules aren't part of their identity as Jews.


    From my perspective they seem to be the majority as are non observant Christians.

    Would you say that was correct?
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #15 - May 30, 2015, 08:38 AM

    From my perspective they seem to be the majority as are non observant Christians.

    Would you say that was correct?


    Yes, by a huge margin, especially outside Israel. This is not only because of the appeal of not having tons of strict laws, but because of the acceptance of non-Jews and leniency towards intermarriage. But conversions and marriages officiated by the Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist movements are not recognized by the Israeli state, meaning that people in that situation cannot enter the country and any children born from those unions are legally considered illegitimate. Many Orthodox Jews don't even consider those more non-observant people Jewish. Like my old rabbi (Freundel), he always made it very clear, especially to those other Jews, that he didn't consider them Jewish.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #16 - June 02, 2015, 10:08 AM



    Michael Satlow - How the Bible Became Holy
    Quote
    In this sweeping narrative, Michael Satlow tells the fascinating story of how an ancient collection of obscure Israelite writings became the founding texts of both Judaism and Christianity, considered holy by followers of each faith. Drawing on cutting-edge historical and archeological research, he traces the story of how, when, and why Jews and Christians gradually granted authority to texts that had long lay dormant in a dusty temple archive. The Bible, Satlow maintains, was not the consecrated book it is now until quite late in its history.

    He describes how elite scribes in the eighth and seventh centuries B.C.E. began the process that led to the creation of several of our biblical texts. It was not until these were translated into Greek in Egypt in the second century B.C.E., however, that some Jews began to see them as culturally authoritative, comparable to Homer’s works in contemporary Greek society. Then, in the first century B.C.E. in Israel, political machinations resulted in the Sadducees assigning legal power to the writings. We see how the world Jesus was born into was largely biblically illiterate and how he knew very little about the texts upon which his apostles would base his spiritual leadership.


    Interview with Michael Satlow
    Quote
    The title of your new book, How the Bible Became Holy, implies that the Bible wasn't perceived as holy—in other words, authoritative—from the outset. Is that right?

    Yes. The standard perspective has long been that the biblical texts become authoritative, more or less, at their moment of composition. This prevailing view is based primarily on the Bible's own strong claims to authority. My own research into the subject, however, points to different and more complex conclusions.

    For starters, we need to think more expansively about what it means to say that the Bible was "authoritative." The texts that ultimately became part of the Bible were understood by different readers in very different ways. I label the three main kinds of authority that various readers gave to the texts as normative, literary, and oracular.

    In the biblical context, normative authority is taking or justifying an action because "the Bible says we should do it," such as when we apply the commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself" in our interactions with others.

    Literary authority is the common phenomenon of authors using earlier texts as models for new ones.

    In ancient Israel, there was a professional class of scribes. While they mainly performed the mundane work of bureaucrats, they also formed a kind of literati, a professional class who read each other's works and wrote for one another. As part of their training, scribes regularly copied and modified earlier texts. Thus, many of the biblical texts began as scribal exercises, not as the normatively authoritative law codes they claimed to be. Exodus 20-23, for example, which contains what scholars call the Covenant Code, was originally written as a scribal exercise. Later scribes drew and improvised on that text as part of their own training—and this became the core of the Book of Deuteronomy. Few outside of the scribal elite would have even known these texts existed!

    The third kind of authority, oracular authority, is the idea that the text contains a message from the Divine realm, usually about the future. Throughout antiquity, this was the primary sense in which the Bible was perceived to be "holy." When, for example, Hosea prophesied the destruction of Israel's Northern Kingdom in the eighth century B.C.E., he turned out to be right, and his book was therefore preserved. Most prophesies that turned out to be wrong were rejected, although a few sneaked by.

    How do we know that the Jewish people did not initially perceive the Hebrew Bible as holy in the normative sense?

    Simply, most Israelites and their immediate descendants (they begin to call themselves Jews after the fifth century B.C.E.) could not read. The literacy rate was exceedingly low throughout antiquity. This does not necessarily mean that the people did not know of these scribal texts or did not hear them recited by others, but even if they knew the biblical stories, it would not have been because the stories were in the Bible; the people would have learned them solely orally. They would not have heard these texts recited at the Temple, which performed its sacrifices in silence; synagogues did not exist in the land of Israel before the first century C.E. And it is improbable that people in antiquity, who gave authority to established custom—doing what their family and village had always done—would have undone their traditions based upon an oral tradition that also appeared in a text they couldn't even read. More specifically, little evidence exists from all of antiquity that Jews consulted texts for their normative behavior. In fact, the Bible is replete with countless examples of precisely the opposite—people ignoring biblical rules.

    Furthermore, we possess a significant number of legal papyri written by Jews in Egypt in the second century B.C.E. to first century C.E., and not one demonstrates awareness of a distinctive Jewish law, even though by that time other writings show they had begun to acquire some knowledge of biblical texts. Even by the first century C.E., when synagogues arrived in the land of Israel, knowledge of scripture was spotty and its authority did not yet displace custom. Jesus, for example, had very limited knowledge of scripture.

    Did the Jewish leadership ever attempt to give normative authority to some biblical texts?

    Yes, but their efforts largely failed. Two examples:

    In the seventh century B.C.E., Josiah, the king of Judah, instituted a policy of religious reforms that he based on his discovery of an older text that had been found during renovations of the Jerusalem Temple. Notably, this text was the core of Deuteronomy, which up to then had been buried away in the Temple unknown and unread. The biblical account is biased-it's all too clear that its author wished to promulgate Josiah's call for centralizing religious worship around the Temple and eliminating images of deities ("idols")-but even the subjective author had to admit that Josiah's reforms quickly failed, cast off even by his own son.

    Fast forward 200 years or so to Ezra the scribe, who returned to Jerusalem from Babylonia in the middle of the fifth century C.E. A functionary of the Persians, who had recently conquered Babylonia, he arrived in Jerusalem armed with a copy of something resembling part of our Torah (scholars debate exactly what) and attempted to use its authority to dissolve the intermarriages he opposed. The Book of Ezra makes clear that Ezra's efforts went nowhere.

    What changed so that the Torah began to have normative authority?

    This accepted way of doing things was upset in the second century B.C.E. with the Maccabean revolt, which led to the establishment of the Maccabees and their descendants, the Hasmoneans, as priests and then also as kings of Judea. The Hasmoneans, who coalesced into a group known as the Sadducees, did not trust the Pharisees, the older, established aristocracy that controlled the Temple ritual. The Sadducees used texts to argue against custom and prove that the Pharisees risked provoking God's anger by not following protocols of ritual purity in the Temple.

    The Sadducees were largely victorious in this power struggle, and as a result they began to disseminate the idea that the Torah had normative authority. By the first century C.E., synagogues began to appear in Sadducean Jerusalem, and from there spread to other parts of Judea and Galilee. In the synagogues Jews began to hear these texts for the first time.

    About a century after the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 C.E., the Pharisees and Sadducees melded together into the group that called themselves the rabbis. For the rabbis, little was more important than Torah, by which they meant God's full revelation, both written and unwritten. A Torah scroll was not thought of as containing text to be readily read and consulted, but as an object so holy it had to be made practically inaccessible. We see their influence today in the reverent way we treat Torah scrolls, which are not simply pulled out to read at leisure. A Torah scroll is more important as a sacred object than it is as a text. When someone wishes to consult the Torah for content, s/he will pull out a printed book, not the Torah itself.

    In time, over succeeding centuries, the Bible, along with rabbinic literature, became increasingly authoritative among Jews. However, multiple similar versions of it were circulating, and when dealing with normative authority, even small differences could be significant. It took until in the 11th century C.E. for Jews to finally agree on the exact version of the Bible we have today.
    ....


    How well did Jesus know his Bible?
    Quote from: Michael Satlow
    Imagine Jesus as a boy. Growing up with his brothers and sisters in a Jewish home in the sleepy town of Nazareth, in lower Galilee, he almost certainly would have been circumcised, followed Jewish dietary rules (kashrut), and observed the Jewish Sabbath and festivals. He would have grown up speaking Aramaic and might have learned a trade from his father. He would have been sent to a Jewish school where he learned to read Jewish Scripture, which he also heard recited in synagogues. Or maybe not.

    Most scholars have long believed that Jesus knew Jewish Scripture well. It is not an unreasonable belief. The Gospels—especially the so-called “synoptic” Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke—frequently depict Jesus citing Scripture to his followers in order to teach them moral lessons and to stoke eschatological expectations. Additionally, it is widely thought that almost all Jewish boys in Palestine were well acquainted with Scripture. If they were, wouldn’t Jesus be as well? And wouldn’t he have had to have received training to learn both Hebrew and how to read?

    Both of these arguments, though, are shaky. The Gospels, written at least several decades after Jesus’ death by people who did not know him, are notoriously poor historical sources. Recent scholarship has also moved away from assuming widespread literacy among Jews in antiquity. Most probably neither knew Hebrew nor how to read. If they knew Scripture at all, it would have been through popular stories; the teaching of an itinerant preacher; maybe an Aramaic translation of an ad hoc reading in a synagogue, if synagogues were even present at this time in Galilee—we have no evidence that they were.

    So let us imagine instead a scripturally-challenged Jesus. He might have picked up bits and pieces of Scripture, which he may occasionally preached on—something along the lines of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), which even if true shows only low level familiarity with the Ten Commandments. For such a Jesus—like the one depicted in the Gospel of John or in the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas—Scripture was not only almost unknown but also largely irrelevant.

    Instead of Scripture, what Jesus knew, and fought about, were traditional Jewish customs and stories. He did not need to turn to Scripture to know these. He knew the dietary rules and Sabbath observance because that is how he was raised. His fights with the Pharisees were not about how to interpret Scripture but about proper Jewish customary practice. Even to the extent that he was seen or saw himself as a messianic figure, such a view was not molded by deep familiarity with Scripture, but by societal expectations. John the Baptist was, after all, but one of many messianic figures roaming the Palestinian country-side at the turn of the era.

    Yet this is not quite the Jesus that the canonical Gospels present, and that is largely due to a fundamental debate that shook early Christian circles: to what extent should Christians consider themselves to be the heirs of the promise of Jewish Scripture? We know, of course, who won this debate—Christians followed Paul in assigning authority to Jewish Scripture, soon to be called the “Old Testament.” For many years, however, this outcome was far from certain. Out of many possible depictions of Jesus, the Gospels that depicted a Scripture-citing Jesus were selected for the canon to conform to the winning idea. The others were shunted aside.

    In many respects, Jesus was typical for a Jew of his social standing, time, and place. Like the vast majority of his community, he assumed that it was tradition—actual communal practice—rather than a text that bore religious authority. In creating a Scripture-citing Jesus, though, the Gospels’ authors shifted that focus, ultimately raising for Christians the importance and authority of the Jewish Bible. Within the Christian and Western context, this was the seed of the idea of the primacy of all text, not just that of the Bible—a seed that would fully blossom during the Reformation and whose fruit very much remains with us today.

  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #17 - June 02, 2015, 04:04 PM

    That book looks amazing Zeca!  I have stuck it on my wish list, and hopefully will find time to read it in the near future.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #18 - June 02, 2015, 04:15 PM

    Yes, I've read it and it's definitely worth getting - out in paperback in a week or so.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #19 - June 02, 2015, 06:07 PM

    While there are literalism in many if not all religions, it's far easier to find people outside islam who don't view their scripture as infallible. Some of the most die-hard fans of their religion outside islam are scientoloigists and mormons who tend to run more towards being a cult. Roman catholics tend to view their scripture as true but not literal. For instance, most RCs are perfectly happy to accept evolution while still believing in Adam, Eve and the garden of Eden. They take it as poetic metaphor to understand our relationship with god. Christian fundamentalism/literalism is hard to find outside of the US and Africa.

    The Dalai Lama has said that if science contradicts scripture he no longer believes the scripture, and has been very accepting in recent years towards homosexuality, and last year threw his weight behind support for same sex marriage, which is worth noting as this has been a change in his own thinking.

    Quote
    In a 1993 talk given in Seattle, the Dalai Lama said:

    nature arranged male and female organs "in such a manner that is very suitable... Same-sex organs cannot manage well." But he stopped short of condemning homosexual relationships altogether, saying if two people agree to enter a relationship that is not sexually abusive, "then I don't know. It's difficult to say."

    Quote
    In a 1997 interview, the Dalai Lama (the leader of Tibetan Buddhism and a widely-respected spiritual figure) was asked about homosexuality. He did not offer any strong answer either way, but noted that all monks are expected to refrain from sex. For laypeople, he commented that the purpose of sex in general is for procreation, so homosexual acts do seem a bit unnatural. He said that sexual desires in themselves are natural, perhaps including homosexual desires, but that one should not try to increase those desires or indulge them without self-control.

    Quote
    The Dalai Lama was more specific in a meeting with Buddhist leaders and human rights activists in San Francisco in 1997, where he commented that all forms of sex other than penile-vaginal sex are prohibited for Buddhists, whether between heterosexuals or homosexuals. At a press conference the day before the meeting, he said, "From a Buddhist point of view, [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct." But he did note that this rule is for Buddhists, and from society's viewpoint, homosexual relationships can be "of mutual benefit, enjoyable, and harmless."


    I feel his words are worth quoting on this thread as you might say this is going against scripture in a sense. Buddhism teaches that sensual enjoyment, desire in general and sexual pleasure in particular are hindrances to enlightenment. Inferior to the kinds of pleasure that are integral to the practice of jhāna. In the Vinaya, the Buddha is recorded as opposing the ordination of those who openly expressed cross-gender features or strong homosexual desires and actions. However buddhist sacred texts do contain a great deal of instances of loving relationships between unmarried men, which some believe to have homoerotic overtones. No sexual contact is mentioned in them though.

    I've never in my life hear of a literalist pagan of any faith, be it wicca, witchcraft, druidism, odinism, asatruism etc. They tend to view their gods as symbolic, manifestations of nature, though I'm not sure that's the case with followers of the goddess, or the goddess and the horned one. There are central tenants but nothing like you'd be familiar with as a muslim.

    Hindus strike me as being more in line with most christians. At least in my experience with hindus in the west, It seems very easy to be agnostic or symbolic towards the scripture and some hindus claim parts of the vedas teach you can be an atheist and a hindu. The cārvāka sect is an example of atheistic hinduism.

    Taoism is a religion that is very easy for it's followers to not be scriptial literalists as there are thousands of taoist scriptures. The gods of taoism (the Three Pure Ones, also translated as the Three Pure Pellucid Ones, the Three Pristine Ones, the Three Divine Teachers, the Three Clarities, or the Three Purities are the highest Gods in the taoist pantheon) though taoism itself it about the tao (usually translated as the Way but that's exactly what it means) which is the ultimate creative principle of the universe. All things are unified and connected in the tao including the gods. The tao itself isn't a god and isn't worshipped.

    The thing about taoism and scriptural literalism is that it's a rather hard thing to do. It's a religion of unity and opposites. Yin and Yang. The principle of Yin Yang sees the world as filled with complementary forces. Action and non-action, light and dark, hot and cold, and so on. Taoism promotes achieving harmony or union with nature and self-development. Everything is in flux, even the heavens. Think of it as religious/spiritual evolution. There are core tenants like the pursuit of spiritual immortality and self-development but the scriptures tend to be seen as non literal, more a guide.

    I'd go into more detais and check to make sure I don't need to edit anything but I need to restart, so here you go. Grin

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #20 - June 02, 2015, 08:28 PM

    Quote
    While there are literalism in many if not all religions, it's far easier to find people outside islam who don't view their scripture as infallible.

    I think there are ideas about scripture shared by Judaism, Christianity and Islam, at least in their more traditional forms, that you generally don't get with other religions. As I understand it in Buddhism and Hinduism ancient texts weren't that well known beyond a small minority of monks and Brahmins and the like. The influence of early western investigators with Christian preconceptions about the role of scripture seems to have encouraged these texts to be treated more as if they were the local equivalents of Christian scripture, which really reflects innovation rather than tradition.
    Quote
    Jews and Christians gradually granted authority to texts that had long lay dormant in a dusty temple archive. The Bible, Satlow maintains, was not the consecrated book it is now until quite late in its history.

    The "texts that had long lay dormant in a dusty temple archive" are probably more typical of the attitude to ancient texts in world religions through most of history. The role of scripture in Judaism, Christianity and Islam is the anomaly.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #21 - June 05, 2015, 04:55 PM

    I find you Atheists arguing that various religions don't believe in their holy writings very much like Christians arguing that truly and really when push comes to shove  there are no atheists. On yes they'll argue that every last one of you will accept a God or gods when you face death or hard times. But in the real reality that is ridiculous. There are many Atheists who have thought out want they have found to be true. There interpretation of the evidence they find supportable has convinced them they are right. There are other Atheists who are Atheist because they feel it is easier . They haven't really been convinced by anything.The same is true of religious people. Some are just the religion they are because they were born to it and they think little more of it..
    So your agreements will end up being sort of endly. As the will always be people with various  views about their own religious writes. These views most likely will always  (until God's Kingdom)  range from the illogical and ill informed to those those who have thoughtfully considered them.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #22 - June 05, 2015, 05:27 PM

    Wow, welcome back Lynna.  Smiley

    Do you think that the bible is the "word of god", or an "inspired book"? For me these two phrases would have very different meanings, and the distinction between the two is at the center of the discussion.


    Yes I believe the Bible is the word of God. It is an inspired book in that 44 men were inspired or directed by God by me and of the holy spirit to write it. That would mean it is accurate but retains the personality of the writer and their personal way of explain things.
    Everything that has been said or claimed about the Bible throughout history however couldn't possibly be true as contradictory things have been said and claimed.

    Thanks for the welcome back.  Smiley

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #23 - June 05, 2015, 07:34 PM

    I find you Atheists...


    I'm not an atheist.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #24 - June 05, 2015, 08:35 PM

    Quote
    I find you Atheists arguing that various religions don't believe in their holy writings very much like


    Re Christianity, I know both you and I are in the states, Lynna, and I come from a Christian background and have lived in the Bible Belt. I know at least a 50/50 split of Christians who do not take the Bible as the actual word of God. I'd even say, outside of intensely-conservative areas, the church-going Christians taking the Bible with a grain of salt outnumber the others. I knew this before and after my atheism.

    Atheism doesn't equal disqualification from objective observation. If anything, a personal emotional investment in one religion compromises your objectivity.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #25 - June 05, 2015, 10:03 PM

    I find you Atheists arguing that various religions don't believe in their holy writings very much like Christians arguing that truly and really when push comes to shove  there are no atheists. On yes they'll argue that every last one of you will accept a God or gods when you face death or hard times. But in the real reality that is ridiculous. There are many Atheists who have thought out want they have found to be true. There interpretation of the evidence they find supportable has convinced them they are right. There are other Atheists who are Atheist because they feel it is easier . They haven't really been convinced by anything.The same is true of religious people. Some are just the religion they are because they were born to it and they think little more of it..
    So your agreements will end up being sort of endly. As the will always be people with various  views about their own religious writes. These views most likely will always  (until God's Kingdom)  range from the illogical and ill informed to those those who have thoughtfully considered them.


    Atheists are not creating this idea out of nothing. It is the religious views that have changed from literal views to a mix found in mainstream religions now. One only needs to look at history to see this is fact. Look at the difference between Protestants and Catholics. One accept works and faith while the other only accepts faith. but both use the same text to argue their views. Many are pointing out these inconsistencies and the changing view of religion as our scientific knowledge increases. It is not that people do and do not believe in their scriptures, it is the interpretations which are in conflict and which evolve over time. Interpretations which change in an ad hoc manner as knowledge increases. So while Catholics in modern time have no major issues with evolution a Catholic centuries ago took Genesis literal.

    Everyone claims they have thoughtfully considered their views but it is the knowledge basis which one uses which is in question. A basis which changes all the time. So those that took Genesis literal did not do it without consideration. However there was a gap in their knowledge, evolution, which undermines the soundness of their views in a modern scope with modern knowledge. Waiting until the Kingdom of God for a conclusion is no more than an argument from ignorance and admitting their views are not sound.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #26 - June 05, 2015, 10:07 PM

    Yes I believe the Bible is the word of God. It is an inspired book in that 44 men were inspired or directed by God by me and of the holy spirit to write it. That would mean it is accurate but retains the personality of the writer and their personal way of explain things.
    Everything that has been said or claimed about the Bible throughout history however couldn't possibly be true as contradictory things have been said and claimed.

    Thanks for the welcome back.  Smiley



    How can something be accurate if using a personal standard, subjective, rather than an objective standard. More so these people are writing to the choir while being members of the choir. This argument works for any religion. More so there is modern knowledge which contradicts the Bible thus the subjective views fails. Knowledge such the emergence of Israelites and Judaism from Canaan rather than from what the Bible claims happened. Modern knowledge is at the point that Exodus is considered fictional story created for political and theological purposes not as a record of history. Now using this basis how can you hold that the Bible is accurate while acknowledging it has contradictory fiction only brought to light by external discoveries not the "inspired work" itself. If these inspired people are obvious to what is fiction and what is history how can you even claim anything they write is accurate without external discoveries. If you changed your views as knowledge progresses then you are exactly the type of person with an interpretation that evolves due to external knowledge, bias, emotions and other personal views as pointed out in my previous comment.
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #27 - June 08, 2015, 10:50 AM

    That book looks amazing Zeca!  I have stuck it on my wish list, and hopefully will find time to read it in the near future.

    This article on canonical and non-canonical scripture is interesting as well:

    Annette Yoshiko Reed - Pseudepigraphy, Authorship and the Reception of 'the Bible' in Late Antiquity

    https://www.academia.edu/1610659/_Pseudepigraphy_Authorship_and_the_Reception_of_the_Bible_in_Late_Antiquity_
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #28 - May 31, 2016, 06:58 PM


    That book looks amazing Zeca!  I have stuck it on my wish list, and hopefully will find time to read it in the near future.


    Talk by Michael Satlow - Who in Antiquity read the Bible?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4akhXmhxEjs
  • how other religions treat their scriptures
     Reply #29 - May 31, 2016, 11:47 PM

    Podcast: Michael Satlow talking about How the Bible Became Holy

    http://newbooksnetwork.com/michael-l-satlow-how-the-bible-became-holy-yale-up-2014/
    Quote
    In How the Bible Became Holy (Yale University Press, 2014), Michael L. Satlow, a professor of religious studies and Judaic studies at Brown University, explores how an ancient collection of obscure writing became, over the course of centuries, “holy.” We take for granted that texts have power, but that idea was not always so obvious to people...


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