Hadith authenticity

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- AlmostAisha
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Hadith authenticity
OP - April 16, 2009, 06:19 PM

There's something that I never really understood, so maybe someone here can clear it up...

I know that there are seven classifications for Hadith authenticity, and that Muslims claim that there is a very intricate "science" that goes with determining the authenticity of each narration.

However, I've had a feeling and this http://www.albalagh.net/qa/hadith_authenticity.shtml
Islamic website confirms it, that finding out whether a particular hadith fits in the authenticity scale

Quote
...is practically impossible for anyone who does not posses any of the above knowledge of science of 'Jarh wal Ta'deel' or the Arabic language together with a brief understanding of Usool-ul-Hadith (sciences of Hadith).

unless I suppose one asks a scholar. The problem I see is that Muslim scholars can't even agree on what is authentic and what is not; for example, this website claims:

Quote
Those books whose Ahaadith are all authentic: Sahih Bukhari, Adabul Mufrad (by Imaam Bukhari), Sahih Muslim, Muwatta Imaam Maalik, Sahih ibn Khuzaymah, Sahih ibn Hibbaan, al-Muntaqa by Imaam Jaaruwd, al-Mukhtaarah by Imaam Dhiyaa-ud-Deen Maqdisiy, Riyaadhul-saaliheen by Imaam Nawawiy, Fourty Ahaadith by Imaam Nawawiy, Hisn Haseen by Imaam Jazary, Part1 of Mishkaat al-Masaabeeh.

while I have heard countless times that certain Bukhari hadith are weak.

So my question is, if the science of hadith is so intricate and so precise then why do scholars disagree on the authenticity of certain hadith? And if I've been going to the crazy scholars or something and most scholars do agree, then why aren't hadith books published with an authenticity ranking for each narration? Wouldn't that give "the layman" at least SOME sort of objective way of determining authenticity, without having to rely on someone's interpretation?

"when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
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Re: Hadith authenticity
Reply #1 - April 16, 2009, 06:21 PM

it has to have a chain of narrations which can me traced all the way back to Mohammed, and is witnessed by others in same way.

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- AlmostAisha
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Re: Hadith authenticity
Reply #2 - April 16, 2009, 07:00 PM

Quote from: King Tut on April 16, 2009, 06:21 PM
it has to have a chain of narrations which can me traced all the way back to Mohammed, and is witnessed by others in same way.

It's much more complicated than that, isn't it?
The character of each person in the chain has to be 'verified', for example.

"when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
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Re: Hadith authenticity
Reply #3 - April 16, 2009, 07:06 PM

Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 16, 2009, 07:00 PM
Quote from: King Tut on April 16, 2009, 06:21 PM
it has to have a chain of narrations which can me traced all the way back to Mohammed, and is witnessed by others in same way.

It's much more complicated than that, isn't it?
The character of each person in the chain has to be 'verified', for example.

Well yes, but the basic principle is it has to be an unbroken narration which directly can be attributed to Mohammed though a chain of narrations, called the isnad. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isnad

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- Baal
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Re: Hadith authenticity
Reply #4 - April 17, 2009, 01:10 PM

Quote from: King Tut on April 16, 2009, 06:21 PM
it has to have a chain of narrations which can me traced all the way back to Mohammed, and is witnessed by others in same way.

Tut, you are missing the forest for the trees. AA is mentioning that the methods (trees) are there. Yet they still after taking all the methods in consideration (forest), the hooplas are still disagreeing among themselves over authenticity.

And it seems there is no other reason for them to disagree, except the degree of embarrassment it causes. So this seems to be the new science of hadith: After vetting the hadith, after doing everything possible to make sure the hadith is true. After u end up with a sahih hadith in your hands. If it still embarrasses the crap out of you, then drop it. Because you do not want people to think (know, find out) that you are an idiot and that your head had been stuffed with crap for most of your formative years.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Hadith authenticity
Reply #5 - April 17, 2009, 02:35 PM

Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 16, 2009, 06:19 PM
So my question is, if the science of hadith is so intricate and so precise then why do scholars disagree on the authenticity of certain hadith? And if I've been going to the crazy scholars or something and most scholars do agree, then why aren't hadith books published with an authenticity ranking for each narration? Wouldn't that give "the layman" at least SOME sort of objective way of determining authenticity, without having to rely on someone's interpretation?

That is precisely what i have been wondering all the time about Islam.

My reasoning is as follow:
There must be some sort of "authority" or "method" in Islam to decide whether somebody is recognized as an Islamic Scholar or not.
So why don't all the "recognized scholar" compile a list of "hadith rankings", specifying whether each and every hadith collected is considered authentic by all or by some or by nobody?

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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Re: Hadith authenticity
Reply #6 - April 17, 2009, 04:29 PM

Because it allows room for manoevre - nobody will accept a universal Islam, and there are too many conflicts of interest e.g. if your gay, if you dont want to wear hijab etc.

Authenticated hadith + Quran is used to be standard - there will come a time when Muslims wont even accept the Quran unless it is in keeping with their personal definition of Islamic character.

This is a good step, and shows its going the same direction as Christianity..

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- coolred38
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Re: Hadith authenticity
Reply #7 - April 17, 2009, 05:57 PM

As far as Im aware...there are actually very few hadith that are rated sahih...or without question...all the rest are up for debate. However...many many Muslims have no idea about a hadiths rating...they just grow up hearing it and assume its 100% without questioning its history etc.
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Re: Hadith authenticity
Reply #8 - April 17, 2009, 06:46 PM

Considering they appear in collections verified as 'sahih' (like Bukhari and Muslim), what do you expect?

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