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 Topic: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed

 (Read 10964 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     OP - May 04, 2009, 10:52 AM

    I know many here take a literalist approach to Islam. I wonder if anyone has an opinion on how modern secular scholarship ended up with Hagarism?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagarism:_The_Making_of_the_Islamic_World

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #1 - May 04, 2009, 11:04 AM

    Umm, Tailor, let's be honest about this: it isn't just "many here". It's "many people in mainstream Islam" as well. Your beliefs are a fringe element that would not even be recognised as Islamic by most Muslims.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #2 - May 04, 2009, 11:10 AM

    I just had a look at that article and the reviews don't seem at all favourable. Your post is rather misleading because if the reviews section of the Wiki article is any guide then the consensus of "modern, secular scholarship" seems to be that Hagiarism is rubbish.

    Quote
    Generally while acknowledged as raising a few interesting questions and being a fresh approach its reconstruction of early Islamic history has been dismissed by some as an experiment and criticised for its "...use (or abuse) of its Greek and Syriac sources..." The controversial thesis of Hagarism is not widely accepted.

    and

    Quote
    The authors' criticism of what they saw as credulous reliance upon biased Islam histories has been widely influential. Subsequent histories of early Islam have usually referred to Hagarism, if only to refute it. In 2006, legal scholar Liaquat Ali Khan claimed that Crone and Cook have explicitly disavowed their earlier book



    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #3 - May 04, 2009, 03:00 PM

    Ahh, good old Patricia Crone and Michael Cook. Even they've now gone back on some of the more radical elements of their Hagarism theory. It makes for interesting reading, but I honestly think they're trying too hard to link it to Palestine at a time when Islam simply wasn't oriented towards it.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #4 - May 04, 2009, 04:01 PM

    I wonder if anyone has an opinion on how modern secular scholarship ended up with Hagarism?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagarism:_The_Making_of_the_Islamic_World

    I was at SOAS in early 80s when Cook was there and I didn't think much of him or Hagarism.
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #5 - May 04, 2009, 04:44 PM

    I'm certainly not espousing Hagarism, but was just interested if anyone liked the theory.

    Hassan, perhaps I still don't understand fully, and for that I apologise. I am not saying you guys are literalists to feel smug about stuff.

    I promise not to go on about it again but, for example, you DO believe that "Aisha" is no more than a woman called Aisha, "Khadija" is no more than a woman called Khadija, "Medina" is no more than a city, "the battle of Badr" was no more than a physical war and "Muhammed" was only a man. They aren't, for example, universal "astral" archetypes or plum puddings. Right? And in this literal sense of those terms,  you reject Islam.

    This is what I mean by literalism. And I did get the impression most people here take this view, but I might have missed the point.

    There are other philosophers (for example, Gilles Deleuze) who DO take the things like Aisha and battle of Badr to be a kind of astral archetype: but for precisely THAT reason are averse to and opposed to organized religion. Because, to simplify into the language of your past, they are "bad jinn". They put it in a more sophisticated, philosophical language. But basically it comes down to bad mojo: sort of like evil spirits or concepts that mess with you psychically.

    Hagarism has within it the unsophisticated beginnings of such a view.

    So people like Deleuze are anti-literalist atheists, if you like. And I got the impression no one here, I have spoken to (possibly with the exception of Ned) takes THAT position, including you.

    Again, apologies if I appear smug about this! I am simply not capable of seeing the literalism unfortunately, but that might well be the result of my own conditioning: I certainly accept that I might be misguided about how I see things. Perhaps, due to my training, I have entered into a kind of madness myself, seeing things where nothing should be seen -- I'm sure my wife would agree Tongue

    Make no mistake about the emotions I feel toward you guys, however: I certainly believe that true happiness can be achieved through just forgetting about religion all together and living a normal life, and don't think there is any hellfire for the vast majority of people who don't see things the way I do, but have any kind of love in their lives.  For example, I believe Richard Dawkins is not in fire if he really really loves his books and his wife (Romana II from Dr Who, lucky him!). I believe that in loving Romana II, he is in effect practicing a deflected salat.




     




    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #6 - May 04, 2009, 04:48 PM

    Oh for some reason Hassan's earlier post was deleted. My response was just to clarify my understanding of literalist versus non-literalist Islamic apostacy Tongue

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #7 - May 04, 2009, 04:53 PM

    I just had a look at that article and the reviews don't seem at all favourable. Your post is rather misleading because if the reviews section of the Wiki article is any guide then the consensus of "modern, secular scholarship" seems to be that Hagiarism is rubbish.


    I agree with the majority that it is mostly rubbish. However, their analysis of what they read as a cut-and-paste job from Judaic and Manichean literature is of course interesting for me. What they say is cut-and-paste I say is a self-aware lineage.

    I think one of the reasons their line of research is so quickly dismissed is simply because no academics want to have their throats cut! There's a whole lot of such speculation going on in Christianity, most of it unfounded, but still has some value in terms of making people aware of some important lineages (e.g., the difference between Jamesean Jewish Christianity and the Pauline version in the earlier phases of the Church). So it's a shame this kind of research is, I think, very much subject to censorship, even if it is from Shaytan.

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #8 - May 04, 2009, 05:20 PM

    Oh for some reason Hassan's earlier post was deleted. My response was just to clarify my understanding of literalist versus non-literalist Islamic apostacy Tongue


    Yes, I deleted it as I didn't want you to think I was having a go at you personally.

    The thing is that I have a long running argument with my (Muslim) brother where he accuses me of rejecting Islam because I have a literalist understanding of Islam - and what you said echoed his words (and is one of the reasons I made my last vid)

    It annoys me, because for a long time I did argue that the Qur'an should not be taken literally. So I was - in fact - a non-literalist (though never a Sufi) and NOT a literalist. But I came to reject the non-literal approach. I simply don't buy it.

    Does that mean I take a literalist approach?

    Or does it simply mean I reject Islam - whether it be the literalist or non-literalist version?
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #9 - May 04, 2009, 05:28 PM

    Oh for some reason Hassan's earlier post was deleted. My response was just to clarify my understanding of literalist versus non-literalist Islamic apostacy Tongue


    Yes, I deleted it as I didn't want you to think I was having a go at you personally.

    The thing is that I have a long running argument with my (Muslim) brother where he accuses me of rejecting Islam because I have a literalist understanding of Islam - and what you said echoed his words (and is one of the reasons I made my last vid)

    It annoys me, because for a long time I did argue that the Qur'an should not be taken literally. So I was - in fact - a non-literalist (though never a Sufi) and NOT a literalist. But I came to reject the non-literal approach. I simply don't buy it.

    Does that mean I take a literalist approach?

    Or does it simply mean I reject Islam - whether it be the literalist or non-literalist version?



    All religious people say this Hassan... "Our religion is wonderful and perfect and beautiful and makes total sense... just... don't READ it.... mmmkay?"

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #10 - May 04, 2009, 05:29 PM

    Hass,

    Ah, I think I understand now. So you were not a-literal in the sense of the Sufis (or the psychic atheists I mentioned), but you were the apologetic guy making darwa along the lines of "oh, well, it doesn't mean we should kill without necessity, there is an lesser jihad and a greater one ... " etc etc.

    And maybe the Muslim who "turned away" when it came to the verses about wives and hellfire and said -- well, I believe in it all, but I don't want to discuss this.

    I agree -- most practicing Muslims are not Salafis at all, nor progressives and certainy not Sufis. The majority are a bit like this. That's why we here are still are happy to stay friends and family with them right? At least their hearts are in the right place Smiley



    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #11 - May 04, 2009, 09:57 PM

    Hass,

    Ah, I think I understand now. So you were not a-literal in the sense of the Sufis (or the psychic atheists I mentioned), but you were the apologetic guy making darwa along the lines of "oh, well, it doesn't mean we should kill without necessity, there is an lesser jihad and a greater one ... " etc etc.


    Hmm... not really... tell you what, don't bother trying to understand me - I can't - so why should you  Tongue

    lol Wink
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #12 - May 04, 2009, 09:59 PM

    At least their hearts are in the right place Smiley


    Isn't everyone's - or did God put it in the wrong place?
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #13 - May 04, 2009, 10:56 PM

    Isn't everyone's - or did God put it in the wrong place?

    Everyone's is. But to a greater or lesser degree, we all lack self-awareness which is the only reason we get stuck between the dichotomies of "good" and "evil". So say the mystics.

    Tailor ... we really need to talk privately. ;-)

    I will say though that I sympathize with the skepticism of the atheists/agnostics/irreligious deists, etc. here because you really need to explain to them how you're arriving at your conclusions about the "transmission of esoteric symbolism" in the Judaic-Islamic tradition (which is what I think you're trying to argue ... it's a very interesting idea and I can see you're employing some of Ibn Arabi's ideas about imaginal worlds here). I know I've said this before, but you'd need to explain your metaphysic, your cosmology, epistemology, your psychology of the human, what spiritual experiences are and what is the known phenomenology and classification of such experiences, the difference between transformative spirituality vs. translative religion, where the current ongoing global science/spirituality dialogue stands and what its history is, how your own vision is developing, etc. etc. This is a tough crowd!

    The thing is, really anybody can spin any kind of story based on scriptures -- there has to be some method or some way of testing one's vision and ensuring that it does in fact express an inner spiritual integrity, otherwise it's just an undisciplined mental hodge-podge. In the Eastern traditions, these methods involve incredibly rigorous methods of yoga and meditation as you know -- there are proper methods for self-purification, for healing internalized emotional pathologies, for integrating the psyche, widening one's perceptions, all that sort of stuff, without which any mental philosophy is really just something kind of arbitrary. And experience is considered vastly more important than the words of any text or philosophy, of course ... the key is self-transformation, not holding this belief or that belief, or unbelief even. There are so many mystics who expressed their experiences in negative terms, and if you don't know what a mystical experience is like you would read them and think they were skeptics although they were God-lovers ... there are even so many Sufis (mostly Indian AFAIK) who wrote poetry about how they couldn't figure out if God is in belief (imaan) or unbelief (kufr), such as Khawaja Ghulam Farid.

    This whole topic is really extremely complex and difficult to express in words.

    I personally separate faith and belief. For me faith has little or nothing to do with belief ... it is a way of being, a mode of perception, and an inner striving toward self-sacrifice. Beliefs are at best a guide or a pointer that facilitate that inner transformation. Believe me, I'm a big fan of mythopoesis as an agency that facilitates self-transformation, but I don't fetishize any one system of symbols or get too attached to it (I'm grounded in Vedanta but fairly open to any other tradition as well) -- there are higher stages of spiritual growth in which it is impossible to hold on to any system of beliefs whatsoever because the mystic becomes so detached from the rational mind.

    And this is also why I am so unimpressed by orthodox Sufis like Nuh Keller, etc. As far as I can tell, they have absolutely no experiential idea about spirituality, and are as dogmatic, cultish, etc. as anybody else is. They have no understanding of the relativity of mental beliefs compared to the actual development of an inner spiritual vision. This might sound really harsh but I would go so far as to call them charlatans who are essentially running cults. Understanding the limitations of mental beliefs is practically Spirituality 101, and if they haven't grasped even that they couldn't be more deluded if they think they have anything deserving the name of gnosis (inner knowledge of the Divine or supraphysical realities).

    Another point I want to make is that I personally think in your symbolic re-reading of the Quran you should just admit up front that no religious scripture is perfect. Some verses aren't symbolic or capable of symbolic re-interpretation -- they are just reflective of a premodern ethos and have to be scrapped. Ditto for the vast majority of the hadith. I don't know why Muslims are so reluctant to admit this. Most modern Buddhists, Vedantists, Taoists, etc. are perfectly content to take this position w.r.t. their own scriptures. The Hindu reformers essentially scrapped all the premodern shastras and smritis. Because otherwise one has to do some really silly mental gymnastics to believe that what is actually a cruel and harsh verse is something profound. I mean one can certainly do a kind of "poetic transmutation" as I mentioned before but it is rather silly to suggest that this is what Muhammad intended *at that point in space and time in which the verse was uttered by Muhammad*.

    I read your post on historicity and I liked it very much but then you have to say your interpretation is a "transhistorical" one -- which is consistent with spiritual metaphysics and phenomenology according to which it is possible to transcend time/history in identification with the Divine.

    I personally think that the dogmas that have crippled the evolution and development of the Islamic tradition, and especially its rationalist and mystical traditions, are:

    1. that the Quran is the *literal* word or speech of God (come on, man ... that makes no sense even metaphysically ... even the Mu'tazilites figured that much out);

    2. that the revelation ended with Muhammad and is not something ongoing and evolutionary (well, to be fair, this dogma is also found in Christianity, but Christianity has also got some major pluralistic spokespeople like, e.g., Raimundo Panikkar, who says he is both a Catholic and a Vedantist mystic and experiences no contradiction between the two);

    3. that all religions that came before Islam are rendered null and void by it and thus everyone must some day embrace Islam ... I have been amused to meet or dialogue with conservative Sufis who have tried to convince me to abandon the highly developed evolutionary Vedantic tradition because Vedanta was replaced by Islam 1400 years ago ... it's like they have no idea how much philosophical work has been done by modern neo-Vedantists.
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #14 - May 04, 2009, 11:16 PM

    P.S. To allat, your avatar rocks! Afro
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #15 - May 05, 2009, 01:10 AM

    P.S. To allat, your avatar rocks! Afro


    Thanks Ned! When are you getting yourself one?  Smiley

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #16 - May 05, 2009, 04:06 AM

    We could always pick one for her............

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #17 - May 05, 2009, 04:25 PM

    Ned's a chick?!

    Ned, I am happy to be called transhistorical because I don't believe in the possibility of authentic history -- I said in my blog, it is like the Early Music project of the 20th century. Regarding your problem with my attachment to an authenticity contained within the signs and terminology ... well, I will not renounce that, and here is why. But perhaps you won't mind what I have to say.

    You would like an answer to my metaphysics, and so here goes. This is not meant for human consumption, but is just for you.

    THE TAILOR'S METAPHYSICS

    To those who say: the Tailor is fixated upon the signs and poetry, this is not correct, because I follow the sunnah of the great nomad himself, whose sunnah is to purchase and steal, maraud and marry from the cities and peoples, from the other regimes of signs to form a new regime. The Nomad, the DJ sampling, the Elvis.

    Regarding discounting further religious revelations post-Quran, of course I don't discount this. Because the sunnah is to sample, steal, purchase and marry, then how can I do this, if not through further post-Quranic revelations? To follow the sunnah of the DJ is to accept there are multiplicities of musical forms to sample (and, in some cases, steal). A nomad accepts there are always other territories to pass through, and Islam is the nomad (Islam began as a stranger).



    I happen to believe that everyone passes through what the philosopher Deleuze would call a "micro"-Muhammed, whenever they experience one of these things. Just like I believe that we all pass through a "micro"-Elvis whenever we listen to rock and roll (every contemporary rocker has passed through a micro-Elvis, even if they hate his sound). Just as Elvis stole the soul of southern blues, Muhammed captured the Feminine Presence of God (epitomized by Safiya, again a repetition of the Helen archetype) from the Hebrew tribes:
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/safiyya/
    This is the reason why Judaic code appears within, why the blues is still the meaning behind the music of Elvis.

    Muhammed is like Elvis. And Jesus is like Dylan, the Logos of rock, whispering words of introspective love that emanate like a heartbeat from within: without Dylan, there would be no lyrics in Rock -- all lyrics come from Dylan.

    There is no Rocker between Dylan and Elvis.

    There is no rock present in Cat Stevens, the foolish impostor, tricking people with his false sincerity. He was never rock: he was, and always will be, a bland, boring bearded imitation.

    Your Vedanta is Ravi Shankar, whose sound informed the Beatles (who, again using Deleuze's terminology, form a mystical amalgam, a machinic assemblage of Elvis and Shankar and therefore constitute the Sufis). And I wear their mop-top hair, but I am not a micro-Beatle, although I sampled their songs from within my DJ booth, at the Rave of Hyper-Salafism.

    And so a warning to those who would create a New Age music: you may take your Ravi Shankar, because there is indeed more to music than just Rock. You may fuse them with another sound, as the Beatles did. Or take the Beatles themselves. Sample them, as I sample them, to make a harder sound. But don't go removing the poetry of the lyrics, the violence present within the Pandava's quest, the acts of thievery and provocation. Don't make a music that sings only in praise of the Real: this will either be bland New Age muzak -- Yanni -- or else something by John Cage. Because acts of poetry, the acts of thievery and provocation, as well as of reconcilation and marriage, are precisely what music is all about. In particular, this poetry is the meaning of true Rock.

    And the Seal of Rock is Elvis: everyone passes through him, both the young Elvis of the South and older Elvis of the Medina-Las-Vagas, even if they despise his sideburns, his raw machismo, his sexuality and flashy jumpsuits.

    (He he he)

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #18 - May 05, 2009, 07:17 PM

    There is no Rocker between Dylan and Elvis.
     
    And the Seal of Rock is Elvis: everyone passes through him, both the young Elvis of the South and older Elvis of the Medina-Las-Vagas, even if they hate his sideburns and flashy jumpsuits.

    (He he he)


    Great analogies Cheesy

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #19 - May 05, 2009, 07:26 PM

    Analogies? Or code? Just livin' the prophetic dream, m'friend, livin' the dream Tongue

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #20 - May 05, 2009, 09:01 PM

    Ned's a chick?!

    That's what she reckons, but you never know. It might be a code for something esoteric. Wouldn't surprise me with Ned.  parrot

    PS: I'll read up on your metaphysics later when my brain is functioning. It's still too early for weapons grade stuff.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #21 - May 06, 2009, 06:14 AM

    And of course, there are many amongst us here who cannot hear any blues in the music of Elvis.

    To bring the discussion back to Hagarism. Some say, for example, that Elvis was power-mad, utilizing the soul of the blues simply to achieve pop greatness. There are other theorists, like Crone and Cook, who cannot even envisage that there could be physical Elvis as such, and that he was created by Jewish and Arab music moguls, a pop-fiction, to conquer the physical realms of the charts. Solely for financial gain. This is because they can't believe any white man could have soul.

    Some hear only meaningless cacophony.  We tried that experiment earlier in another post. Some will even refuse to listen to Rock at all these days, being left with a bad taste in their mouths by the many inferior imitators who failed to pass through the micro-Elvis. For while we can all become the King, many impostors simply fake it to deceive. Let us repeat that axis of deception: Sami Yusuf, Cat Stevens and Native Deen. May their sales deplete.

    But to the hyper-Elvisite, it is understood that the man really did feel it -- and in watching him feel it, we feel it ourselves, and pass through the micro-Elvis. So we let the suspicious minds rest. We don't deny that the nomad has stolen the soul: but we also claim he married it. Viva las vegas!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX_xV2iBSww

    And the King speaks to the apostates directly in self-referential awareness:

    We're caught in a trap
    I can't walk out
    Because I love you too much baby

    Why can't you see
    What you're doing to me
    When you don't believe a word I say?

    We cant go on together
    With suspicious minds
    And we cant build our dreams
    On suspicious minds

    Oh let our love survive
    Or dry the tears from your eyes
    Let's don't let a good thing die

    When honey, you know
    I've never lied to you
    Mmm yeah, yeah

     dance

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #22 - May 07, 2009, 03:24 PM

    If Elvis is Muhammad and Bob Dylan is Jesus who is God? And who is Satan?

    My vote for God would possibly go to Jimi Hendrix:



    And I suspect Satan might be Johnny Mathis:



    Any other suggestions?
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #23 - May 07, 2009, 04:08 PM

    Ozzie Osbourne has gotta be satan

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #24 - May 09, 2009, 03:23 AM

    Everyone knows Eric Clapton is god!


    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #25 - May 09, 2009, 07:45 PM

    My vote for God would possibly go to Jimi Hendrix:
    Any other suggestions?


    Hendrix is the Bah?'u'll?h. Certainly the Divine exists within his work, precisely because of his relation to the Elvis. However, the nature of his intoxication (and some of the problems related to intoxication) makes him difficult for us to say more Wink

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #26 - May 10, 2009, 04:51 PM

    Ned's a chick?!

    That's what she reckons, but you never know. It might be a code for something esoteric. Wouldn't surprise me with Ned.  parrot

    PS: I'll read up on your metaphysics later when my brain is functioning. It's still too early for weapons grade stuff.

    Ned is a shortened version of my real name. It's a nickname I've had since fifth grade.

    Sorry about being esoteric. I can't resist it sometimes, but in general I want to stay out of metaphysical discussions on this forum. I'll be setting up my website at some point, with proper academic sources, so I might link you to that later. One of the audiences I want to reach are rationalists/agnostics/atheists but I need to put together the background reading and source materials for that first (having been an atheist myself four years ago, I know you guys are a tough crowd ;-) ). I have no desire to convert anyone, but I only want to show that there are versions of theism that are intellectually coherent and not as easy to dismiss as religionism.

    I only joined this forum because of my emotional alienation in Pakistan -- not being able to be "out" as a non-Muslim or as a non-religious person who is highly critical of the dogmatism in all traditional religions.
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #27 - May 10, 2009, 05:47 PM

    Ned's a chick?!

    That's what she reckons, but you never know. It might be a code for something esoteric. Wouldn't surprise me with Ned.  parrot

    PS: I'll read up on your metaphysics later when my brain is functioning. It's still too early for weapons grade stuff.

    Ned is a shortened version of my real name. It's a nickname I've had since fifth grade.

    Sorry about being esoteric. I can't resist it sometimes, but in general I want to stay out of metaphysical discussions on this forum. I'll be setting up my website at some point, with proper academic sources, so I might link you to that later. One of the audiences I want to reach are rationalists/agnostics/atheists but I need to put together the background reading and source materials for that first (having been an atheist myself four years ago, I know you guys are a tough crowd ;-) ). I have no desire to convert anyone, but I only want to show that there are versions of theism that are intellectually coherent and not as easy to dismiss as religionism.

    I only joined this forum because of my emotional alienation in Pakistan -- not being able to be "out" as a non-Muslim or as a non-religious person who is highly critical of the dogmatism in all traditional religions.


    I always highly appreciate your posts, Ned.

    I look forward to your website  Afro
  • Re: Hagarism and the Historical Muhammed
     Reply #28 - May 12, 2009, 12:53 PM

    Ned, I also look forward to your website.

    But what about a response to my metaphysics? I laid it all down just for you, remember!

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
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