Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 03:34 PM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
Yesterday at 01:05 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Yesterday at 07:37 AM

New Britain
June 20, 2025, 09:26 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
June 18, 2025, 09:24 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
June 17, 2025, 11:23 PM

Is Iran/Persia going to b...
by zeca
June 17, 2025, 10:20 PM

News From Syria
June 17, 2025, 05:58 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
June 17, 2025, 10:47 AM

ماذا يحدث هذه الايام؟؟؟.
by akay
June 02, 2025, 10:25 AM

What happens in these day...
June 02, 2025, 09:27 AM

What's happened to the fo...
June 01, 2025, 10:43 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Quranic numerology

 (Read 9760 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Quranic numerology
     OP - May 28, 2009, 05:11 PM

    I was discussing Islam with a quran-only friend.  He is not 100% about Islam but was really excited about Quranic numerology and remained Muslim

    http://www.rashadkhalifa.org/mathematical-miracle.html

    Quote
    Anyway, the most shocking revelations from this book are what they call the 'Maths Miracle'. I can't figure out how this supposed illiterate Arab author managed to 'engineer' this book in such an incredible way that all the letters, words, verses, surahs are devisable by one of the most difficult prime numbers '19' or some other elaborate mathematical order. Count the number of times the word 'month' appears in the whole Quran and you get 12, count 'day' and you get 365...even the Arab letters for 'b' and 'm' are balanced. The mentioning of the word 'Man' is equally balanced by his counterpart 'Woman', even surah Yaseen ('Ya' meaning 'Y', 'Seen' meaning 'S') is balanced - check it out.
    But the most shocking of all 'miracles' is the lunar landing prediction which nobody up till now has given me a plausible explanation for. Try it out yourself, if you have time, it should take a few minutes, count all the verses from the start of verse [54:1] ?The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split.? in Surah 54 titled ?The Moon? to the end of the book and you?ll get 1390 verses.
    Convert 1390 in Hijri Islamic calendar to our Gregorian calendar and you get the year 1969. In the year 1969 Armstrong and co went to the moon, and left the next day July 21 1969, splitting the moon of 21kg of its rocks to bring back to earth as samples. They left at 7:54:1 (verse 54:1). We also get 21071969 and 21071969 = 19 x 1109051 and there?s much more where that came from.

    and

    Quote
    Just open an Arabic copy of the Quran and count the number of letters in Basmallah. Divide the number of verses in the whole book by 19 and you get a whole number, divide the chapters by 19 and it?s the same. Sum the gematrical values of the word 'One' in either Arabic, Aramaic or Hebrew and you get 19 etc.... you can find a vast amount of calculations similar to this, which I've seen no other book including the bible imitate, and then the question is, why 19?  -  '1' means the first and '9' means the last. Smiley


    I said that you could just about find any number in the Quran with this type of method, anyone know of any other debunking arguments?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #1 - May 28, 2009, 05:19 PM

    Tell him the same trick works with the Hong Kong telephone directory, so does that mean it was written by God too?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #2 - May 28, 2009, 05:25 PM

    Quote
    I said that you could just about find any number in the Quran with this type of method, anyone know of any other debunking arguments?


    Similar tricks have been done with Moby Dick and the Hong Kong telephone directory.  Its bollocks, there's probly a thorough debunking on Wiki, and I'm sure I've seen a You Tube where Carol Vorderman debunks it too.  Google is your friend. 


    I cant find what happened with these two examples on google (searching these terms & with Islam just pulls up the obvious), pls tell me more about Moby Dick & the Hong Kong telephone directory so I might use them in my refute

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #3 - May 28, 2009, 05:32 PM

    Its just general numerology you should be googling IsLame, not anything to do with Islam specifically.  Christians have done the same with the Bible, Jews with the Talmud, and probly Dan Brown fans with the Da Vinci Code too, so people that debunk it won't have concentrated on any one religion.

    There's a thread over at Dawkins forum debunking it, I'll look later and post some of the links they dug up.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #4 - May 28, 2009, 05:34 PM

    Ta

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #5 - May 28, 2009, 08:43 PM

    K.  First thing to acquaint your friend with is the logical fallacy known as the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

    Then you might like to point him to this....

    http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #6 - May 28, 2009, 08:48 PM

    Liking these links - will send him a dose of them.  Incidentally what was the Hong Kong phonebook connection?  I remember hearing about it a few years ago, but cant remember what it was about?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #7 - May 28, 2009, 08:53 PM

    One just has to look closely at your post to see that you are somehow connected to all of this.


    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #8 - May 28, 2009, 08:55 PM

    And your last post was 2836 which works even better!

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #9 - May 28, 2009, 09:10 PM

    spooky  mysmilie_977

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #10 - May 28, 2009, 09:40 PM

    One just has to look closely at your post to see that you are somehow connected to all of this.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    OH MY GOD! :O

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #11 - May 28, 2009, 09:45 PM

    IsLame is a Prophet.   worship

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #12 - May 28, 2009, 10:05 PM

    Wow, this is incredibly fun. I can see why somebody who loves controversies would be convinced by this sort of stuff.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #13 - May 28, 2009, 10:24 PM

    IsLame is a Prophet.   worship

    I dont believe in blowing my own trumpet, but yes, and very humbly admit that I have been discovered. 

    It was all a test to see who amongst you had the most powerful reasoning and could see beyond what was in front of your eyes. 

    Sumissive Bob will be made 1st caliph as a reward. 

    For the rest of you, I will bestow an eternal life of bliss to whoever donates the most money via Western Union Money Union transfer to my Nigerian home address.


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #14 - May 28, 2009, 10:52 PM


    For the rest of you, I will bestow an eternal life of bliss to whoever donates the most money via Western Union Money Union transfer to my Nigerian home address.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwgNe3SpvzQ

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #15 - May 29, 2009, 12:18 AM

    WTF! Take a look at this. You won't be able to view it on here because E4 has disabled video embedding. You will have to click on the video and watch it on youtube.

    Does anybody else see what I see? I'll give you a clue: La ilaha il Allah

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4vxN9vP3mg

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #16 - May 29, 2009, 04:27 AM

    Bob, your reply was terrific!  Afro

    This site finds numerological miracles in Edgar Allan Poe's poetry!

    The following example is an expansion of one first presented on USENET by Charles Culver of Computers for Christ.

    For this example, we will use numerical values for English letters assigned using the same pattern as used for Arabic, Greek and Hebrew.

    A=1 B=2 C=3 D=4 E=5 F=6 G=7 H=8 I=9
    J=10 K=20 L=30 M=40 N=50 O=60 P=70 Q=80 R=90
    S=100 T=200 U=300 V=400 W=500 X=600 Y=700 Z=800

    We will analyse the famous first line of Poe's classic poem "The Raven":

    Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary

    * There are 7x7 letters.
    * The first and last words sum to 202x7, of which the first letters contribute 80x7.
    * The consonants in words starting with a consonant sum to 537x7.
    * The consonants in words ending with a consonant sum to 485x7, of which 192x7 comes from the odd length words and 293x7 from the even length words.
    * The consonants in words 2,4,6,8,10 sum to 177x7.
    * There are 7 words ending with consonants.
    * There are 3x7 consonants in words of even length.
    * Considering words 1,3,5,7,9,11:
    o There are 3x7 letters.
    o The even (2,4,6..) letters in each word total 138x7.
    o The last letters of each word total 205x7.
    o The first and last letters of each word total 51x7x7.
    * Considering the verb "pondered":
    o The first letter has value 10x7.
    o The vowels have total value 10x7.

    In his original article, Charles wrote:

    There are a number of other objections to Panin's methodology
    as well, which time does not permit me to go into.

    It appears that Charles is just as good at writing numerical text as Poe was.

    * The sentence has 3x7 words and a total value of 143x7x7.
    * The first word has value 44x7.
    * Words ending in vowels have value 230x7.
    * Words ending in consonants have value 708x7.
    * The three pronouns total 40x7.
    * The words which start with a vowel and end with a consonant total 3x7x7x7.
    * Considering just words 2,4,6,8,...,20:
    o There are 6x7 letters.
    o The 3x7 letters in odd position in the sentence total 53x7x7.
    o The 3x7 letters in odd position in a word total 54x7x7.
    o The first letters total 163x7.
    o The consonants total 408x7.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #17 - May 29, 2009, 06:23 AM

    Another great satire on Biblical & Quranic numerology!  great
       
    Quote
    Notes from visitor 6006
    In May 1996, I came across a particular web page promoting the work of Ivan Panin. The satirical message I sent to them shows how Panin-like patterns can be found in any text.
    The web page no longer exists. Computers for Christ does, but they now oppose Panin's work.
    By way of explanation, the place value of a letter is just its position in the alphabet. (A=1, B=2, ..., Z=26.) Panin often used place values.
    ________________________________________
    Hi there!  I was just passing through your page and I happened
    to notice I was visitor number 6006, which you will immediately
    recognise to be a multiple of 7!  Struck by this minor miracle,
    I looked at your amazing material on Mr (er, sorry, Dr) Panin and
    thought I'd better check out your credentials.

    So, I thought, what better way than to apply the Panin test!?  
    Here are three of your sentences:

        If you are an atheist, agnostic or think the bible is
        other than the inspired word of God then I strongly urge
        you to first read the following document from Computers
        for Christ. It shows startling mathematical evidence of
        the Bible's divine origin. It presents evidence that could
        only be unlocked in our time with the wonders of computers.

    I gotta admit, I used to be an agnostic.  Shame on me, but finally
    I saw the error of my ways and became an atheist.  Yeah, your
    sentences are for me alright!

    I started to get worried when I found that those three sentences
    have altogether 7x25 consonants, of which 7x13 appear in even
    positions in a word and 7x12 appear in odd positions.  Not only
    that, but 7x13 appear in even words of a sentence and 7x12 appear
    in odd words, and 7x13 are the even letter of a sentence and 7x12
    an odd letter! Imagine my consternation: 7x6 are the last letter
    of a word, and 7x2 are in the last word of a sentence!!  I guess
    it was only to be expected that 7x8 consonants appear in nouns
    and 7x4 in verbs..  

    Oh, the first and last word have 7 consonants between them, right?

    I think I mentioned that the last words of the sentences have 7x2
    consonants: they have 7 vowels too.  The 7x13 consonants in even
    words of sentences: 7x6 are first or last in a word, 7x6 are in
    common nouns, and 7x6 are in articles.  The 7x8 consonants in
    nouns: 7x4 are in the first sentence, and 7x2 are in the last words
    of sentences.  And,.. but I'm getting tired of consonants, what
    about vowels?  The words in even position in the passage have 7x7
    of the little beasties, imagine that!

    I'm beginning to develop an unearthly sort of respect for you,
    because my mate Blue reckons that nobody except you-know-who could
    pack so many 7s into only three sentences and the odds of it
    happening by chance are, you know, only 1 in 7x7x7x7x...just
    about for ever.  Maybe enough for a couple of googlies and their
    friends as well!  But Blue is no slouch, he says: betcha there
    aren't any 7s involving numerical values.  English ain' got any,
    but our pal Ivan Nikolayovich says place values are cool so let's
    use those.

    The first and last letters of the words have place value 7x205,
    of which the first and last words in sentences contribute 7x7x3
    (7x6 from vowels, 7x15 from consonants), those in even words in
    sentences contribute 7x107, those in odd words in sentences
    contribute [yikes!] 7x7x7x3 (7x26 from vowels, 7x22 from consonants,
    7x37 from words starting with a vowel, 7x61 from words starting
    with a consonant), even length words contribute 7x121, odd length
    words contribute 7x7x12, nouns contribute 7x7x6 (7x13 for proper
    nouns and 7x29 for common nouns), articles contribute 7x20 and
    so on.  All that just for the first and last letters of words.

    The words starting with consonants (you seem to have this thing
    about consonants!) have total place value 7x330.  Contributing
    to that total we have the last letters of words (7x7x9), the
    first sentence (7x180), the second sentence (7x65), the third
    sentence (7x85), words ending in a vowel (7x67), words ending in
    a consonant (7x263), even-length words (7x152), odd-length words
    (7x178), common nouns (7x80), and proper nouns (7x26).

    No reader could by now need to know that the letters having odd
    position in a sentence total 7x7x7x5 in order to know that the
    writer of these sentences is no mere human.  My Lord, how can
    I serve you?  You want my life savings?  my wife and kids?  just
    name it, they are Yours.  

    Your adoring servant,
    Zero.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #18 - May 29, 2009, 12:18 PM

    Here's his reply to my last email where I used the info on this thread:

    Quote
    No, I've checked these out before, they're not the same thin in comparison. The Moby Dick wordsearch is very easy to do wth most texts, and the Bible number where the Christians use the number 7 is a cheap maths trick with massive flaws. I've already looked into these. Check this link out for a further explanation on the Bible verses the Quran code for analysis.
     
    http://www.submission.org/miracle/bible_code.html
     
    Wink


     Roll Eyes

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #19 - May 29, 2009, 01:39 PM

    Has anyone ever watched A Beautiful Mind?

    I say you recommend this guy to watch it.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Quranic numerology
     Reply #20 - May 29, 2009, 02:11 PM

    Quote
    No, I've checked these out before, they're not the same thin in comparison. The Moby Dick wordsearch is very easy to do wth most texts, and the Bible number where the Christians use the number 7 is a cheap maths trick with massive flaws. I've already looked into these. Check this link out for a further explanation on the Bible verses the Quran code for analysis.
     
    http://www.submission.org/miracle/bible_code.html
     
    Wink


    1. The Code Employed
              The verse 74:30-31 is talking about 19 angels who are wardens over hell. It does mention something about their number being a trial for the unbelievers, but I'm not sure in what sense. We need Hassan again to interpret the verse. What is more is, they have argued that the code the Christians are using is "man-made" and the code the Muslims use is grounded in this verse. This is superstitious to say the least. The method of the code cannot be wholly found in this verse alone. In fact, the verse doesn't give us a method. In fact, it doesn't even acknowledge that there is a method; there is no mention of any code.

    2. The Writing of the Scripture
              What does it matter that the Christians have applied ELS to the scripture the opposite way to the way you would read it? Where does it say that you have to apply it in the same direction as you would when you read it? If we assume that the Christians really are committing a mistake, then surely that proves you can find fantastic messages even when you apply it "wrongly". That only goes to show that you can apply a code to anything and you will come up with anything.

    3. Original Text
              They argue that the Qur'an is in its original form. This isn't relevant, whether it is in its original form or not. It doesn't matter what version of the Qur'an you use, even if it is a translated version, you could probably find hidden messages. If we could get the original gospel as Jesus told it, you could probably find hidden messages in that by applying some mysterious code.

    4. Added Words
              This is the same as 3. The Qur'an does not contain any added words and therefore is in its original form.

    5. Deliberate Alterations of Translations
              They argue that the Christians whilst they were applying ELS would deliberately change the Bible's words in such a way as it has the same meaning but different words. This is clearly a good criticism of the Bible code, but that does not make the Qur'an code any more convincing; it is not an evidence for the Qur'an code. What I think they are committing is the Gambler's fallacy. Basically, two completely separate events, and you think the outcome in one of the events will influence the outcome of another event, such as if you flip a coin ten time and you get heads, you might say "definitely a tails is going to come up next flip" when in fact the chance that a tail will come up is exactly the same as if you had flipped the coin ten times and got tails on every one. Just because the Bible code has been caught to be inauthentic, doesn't make the Qur'an code any more authentic.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »