Mohamed's Signet

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Mohamed's Signet
OP - April 21, 2010, 03:57 PM

I always wondered why the Signet that Prophet Mo was using says: Allah is the Messenger of Mohamed?

Unless you read it from down upwards, although unusual. Like upright Hotel signs it goes from up downwards and not the other way around. Was he trying to tell us something? Like he was using Allah to gain whatever he wanted? So that Allah was his messenger and not as Muslims thought?

When you think about it, everything he ever wanted (like getting Aisha for example) Allah does the job for him.

Just wondering!

MoSignet.jpg (7.98 KB, 314x200 - viewed 251 times.)

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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #1 - April 21, 2010, 03:59 PM

Allah's name always has to be at the top!
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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #2 - April 21, 2010, 04:08 PM

It always struck me as weird, but never really gave it much thought. I doubt that it means what you said. You'd expect that he doesn't want people to actually know.

Maybe it was some sort of conviction at the time that the signets are done that way. Or maybe he (or the guy who made it, assuming that Mo was illiterate) carved محمد in the bottom and then noticed the mistake but couldn't be arsed to do it again.

EDIT:
Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2010, 03:59 PM
Allah's name always has to be at the top!

LOL. How could I not think of this. Very simple, but makes perfect sense (from an Islamic perspective).

"In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan
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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #3 - April 21, 2010, 04:10 PM

Quote from: Infidel on April 21, 2010, 04:08 PM
EDIT: LOL. How could I not think of this. Very simple, but makes perfect sense (from an Islamic perspective).

Where do you (or rather, Muslims) put the Qur'an on a shelf?
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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #4 - April 21, 2010, 04:27 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2010, 04:10 PM
Where do you (or rather, Muslims) put the Qur'an on a shelf?

LOL: I was entering Syria overland from Turkey several years ago. I was then still quite naive about Islam and was reading a Swedish translation of the Qur'an. Even though it was kind of a brick to carry around, I did it.

When I came to the customs guy, he opened my backpack and the first thing he saw was the green/gold brick laying there. He got visibly surprised and asked if I was a muslim. I negated and said that I was just studying the religion. He smiled and closed the backpack, wishing me welcome to Syria.

Nice guy, nice experience. I have since understood that I was VERY lucky not to have packed it at the bottom of the pack. Under my spare shoes for example.
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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #5 - April 21, 2010, 04:30 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2010, 03:59 PM
Allah's name always has to be at the top!

Even if it says bluntly that "Allah is the messenger of Mohamed"? I think it is weird and still don't know what it meant!

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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #6 - April 21, 2010, 04:33 PM

Quote from: Infidel on April 21, 2010, 04:08 PM
You'd expect that he doesn't want people to actually know.

It is interesting to know that many fugitives serial killers tend to play with clues and send letters to police stations and think they are too smart to be caught! So maybe he said, these are sheep, I can play some games with them sheep!

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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #7 - April 21, 2010, 04:39 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2010, 04:10 PM
Where do you (or rather, Muslims) put the Qur'an on a shelf?

On top shelf? Together with xxx stuff?
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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #8 - April 21, 2010, 05:14 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2010, 04:10 PM
Where do you (or rather, Muslims) put the Qur'an on a shelf?

يعلو ولا يعلى عليه (Basically nothing above it)
I know that stuff. It just never crossed my mind when it came to writing order. It messed the sentence up, but Islamically it kinda makes sense.

"In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan
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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #9 - April 21, 2010, 06:11 PM

Quote from: Infidel on April 21, 2010, 05:14 PM
It messed the sentence up, but Islamically it kinda makes sense.

That is basically what I wanted to say. How can they be satisfied with this explanation then. It definately says:

الله رسول محمد

or

Allah is the messenger of Mohamed

For me it was always puzelling. I am OK with your first suggestion that the guy who made the signet ring made a mistake.

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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #10 - April 21, 2010, 06:17 PM

Is word order so strict in Arabic that you can't switch subject and attribute?

Like:

God's prophet is Mohammad

instead of

Mohammad is the prophet of God.
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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #11 - April 21, 2010, 07:07 PM

Quote from: SE-man on April 21, 2010, 06:17 PM
Is word order so strict in Arabic that you can't switch subject and attribute?

Like:

God's prophet is Mohammad

instead of

Mohammad is the prophet of God.

I am not sure about the language as a whole (can't be arsed to start comparing grammar and shit now), but this sentence is very clear if taken by its order (up to down) "Allah is a messenger of Mohammed". Can't be interpreted differently. If its read from below, it would be normal "Mohammed is a messenger of Allah".

"In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan
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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #12 - April 21, 2010, 08:00 PM

Quote from: SE-man on April 21, 2010, 06:17 PM
Is word order so strict in Arabic that you can't switch subject and attribute?

Like:

God's prophet is Mohammad

instead of

Mohammad is the prophet of God.

To say "God's Messenger is Mohamed" you need to add at least one more letter as such:

الله رسوله محمد

But it is not and as infidel said. It only can mean: Allah is the messenger of Mohamed. And that is the weiredst thing to say from a Muslims prespective.

Now, what if the true islam is not the one we know it. Mohamed lookad at him selve as the GOD and not a messenger. I know this might sounds OTT speculation. But ever wondered what does "Salla Allaho Alayhe Wa Salem" realy means in arabic?

I only know one meaning of it and that is Allah prays to Mohamed. This too made me puzled when I was a an unquestioning Muslim. How can the creator pray to the creature he created?

Muslim say it all the time, and it is in the Quran. When ever they mention the name Mohamed, the have to say "Sala Allaho Alayhe was Salam". So the translation: Peace be upon him is misleading and not correct.

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Re: Mohamed's Signet
Reply #13 - April 21, 2010, 09:53 PM

Is this it?

صلي الله عليه وسلم

I tried to decode this using my trusty Langenscheidt and I see what you mean. The verb صلي is said to mean pray, but a special case is given when God is the subject, in which case it recives the meaning "segnen" which I would translate with "to bless", and then the sentence suddenly means "Gods blessing be upon him, and peace". I think?

Might this be the reason that Quranic arabic is claimed to be difficult to learn? It is randomly re-defined when needed to make the Qur'an make sense?
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