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 Topic: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this

 (Read 5349 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     OP - September 18, 2009, 04:20 PM

    Our selective moral outrage is shameful
    By Guest | Published: July 27, 2009
    This is a guest-post by Ibn Khaldun

    ****

    Muslims living in Britain and around the world are often outraged when Muslims are killed or Muslim holy sites attacked. This is a normal and often admirable reaction. However, I am increasingly frustrated that this moral outrage is often highly selective and is only ignited when it is non-Muslims who are doing the killing and attacking.

    In the mid-90s, I remember the outrage amongst Muslims in Britain when the Bosnia tragedy was unfolding. There were street protests, leaflet campaigns, conferences and a great deal of activism and mobilisation against the war. Muslims were equally vocal about the war in Chechnya and yet there was total silence about the simultaneous events in East Timor. Here we had Indonesia ? the world?s most populous Muslim country ? organising and arming militias to conduct an armed campaign which left 1400 dead and made 300,000 into refugees. This followed a 24 year occupation by Indonesia in which an estimated 102,800 died. Did the fact that this time it was Muslims doing the killing make a difference?


    The same applies to the situation in Darfur today. For decades, the people of Darfur have suffered years of intense racism and neglect at the hands of Sudan?s Arab-dominated government. Because they were Black Africans, they were looked down upon as not worthy of the same rights to land and government help as their Arab compatriots. Years of frustration and anger boiled over in 2003 as militias from Darfur clashed with Sudanese government forces. What followed was a campaign of rape, theft and systematic genocide. Sudanese government forces and Janjaweed militias attacked villages in Darfur, slaughtering men, raping women and burning down entire villages. It is estimated that up to 300,000 people have been killed to date with a further 2 million made homeless. Many Darfurian women were kidnapped by the Janjaweed and kept as sex slaves for weeks on end. Has there been moral outrage amongst Muslims in Britain? Have there been street protests in the Arab world? Have there been effigy burnings in Pakistan? No. No. And No!

    The deafening silence over Darfur is no isolated incident. During Bangladesh?s Liberation War of 1971, Pakistani troops are believed to have killed between 300,000 and 3 million civilians and raped between 200,000 and 400,000 women. Again this was met with very little protest in the Muslim world and continues to be a taboo subject that is often denied in Pakistan today. Similarly since 1975 Morocco has illegally occupied Western Sahara whilst the indigenous Sahrawi people remain exiled in dust-blown refugee camps in neighbouring countries. The plight of the Kurds, the single largest ethnic group in the world without a state, continues to be ignored by Muslims across the world. Discussions about the conditions in the Palestinian territories continue to ignore the abject poverty and squalid refugee camps across the Arab world that the home to hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees. The bloody Muslim-on-Muslim violence that erupted in Afghanistan after the USSR?s retreat as well as the Taliban?s brutal treatment of women and political opponents have also incited very little outrage.

    However, when a small Danish newspaper decided to publish offensive pictures of the Prophet Muhammad in 2006, Muslims around the world reacted with fury. Embassies were attacked, nuns were killed and Christians living in Muslim majority countries feared for their safety. Yet the Saudi destruction of holy sites in Mecca and Medina continues to go largely ignored by Muslims around the world. Since occupying the Hejaz region of the Arabian Peninsula, our great allies the Saudis have gone on a rampage that has included the destruction of homes, graves and mosques that belonged to the Prophet Muhammad?s family and companions. This has included the destruction of the house of Khadija (the first wife of the prophet) to make way for public toilets, the bulldozing of the Prophets daughter Fatima?s grave, the destruction of the home of one of the Prophets closest companions and even the home of the Prophet himself. If this destruction had been undertaken by a Western army the entire Muslim world would have exploded with outrage. Yet on this subject ? like so many others ? the Muslim world is almost silent.

    The often selective nature of Muslim activism is not healthy and is not in line with the principles of Islam or universal moral values. Leftists who encourage Muslims to pursue such selective activism are guilty of the racism of lower expectations. It?s as if these people look at Muslims and say to themselves that ?of course Muslims will only care for their own, we can?t expect them to have concerns for the whole of humanity, After all, they?re just Muslims?. We need to stop feeding the ?Clash of Civilisations? mentality by viewing the world in terms of two zones and only caring for the side we see ourselves as belonging too. The Al-Qaida narrative of ?they are killing our people and therefore we should fight back? is the exact same argument that Kind Ferdinand of Spain used to expel Muslims from the Iberian Peninsula. He cited the conquest of Constantinople by Mehmud the conqueror and the subsequent oppression of Christians in the former Byzantine territories as the reason why the Muslims of Spain should be fought and driven out. It was also the same argument used by Pope Urban the second to galvanise the first crusades.

    Now of course Muslims and all sound-minded citizens should continue to speak out against that which we find objectionable in the world. The US invasion of Iraq is just one example of this. But moral outrage should not be limited to non-Muslim actions alone nor should we only object to non-Muslim silence in the face of evil. We as Muslims must condemn actions because they are wrong in themselves ? not just because they were they were done by the West. When, for example, will we begin to acknowledge the very little known fact that Hitler?s SS had a Muslim unit, led by the Mufti of Jerusalem? This unit recruited largely from the Muslim populations of Bosnia and Kosovo and helped the Nazi regime to exterminate 60,000 Jews and 20,000 Roma gypsies. If we as Muslims want the world to take our moral outrage seriously we need to stop being selective and instead to begin following the Quranic injunction that we should ?enjoin the good and forbid the evil? regardless of who the perpetrators of violence or its victims are.


    Source - The Spittoon

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #1 - September 18, 2009, 04:29 PM

    A very good & pertinent article by an apparently Muslim gentleman. I as a non Muslim do find it difficult to garner too much sympathy over Muslim causes when there's this apparent hypocrisy shown in the many cases where Muslims are killing non Muslims.

    I guess had Muslims been honest enough to show, if not equal(that is difficult for anyone) but at least significant outrage over n Muslim killings of non Muslims, I would find it easier to sympathize.

    Its almost like they have internalized Allah's words in the Quran, that believers are the "best of peoples," while unbelievers are the "worst of creatures." Cool

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #2 - September 18, 2009, 04:33 PM

    Yep and even worse are the lefty tossers who go along with them.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #3 - September 18, 2009, 04:38 PM

    Yep and even worse are the lefty tossers who go along with them.


     Afro These lefty tossers would be the biggest victims if & when Islam comes into power anywhere. Gays, unwed moms, nudist beaches, Wicca, neopaganism etc aren't at all liked by Muslim.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #4 - September 18, 2009, 04:48 PM

    Yep and even worse are the lefty tossers who go along with them.

    Couldn't agree more. I find "lefty tossers" even more despicable because they are mostly not religiously indoctrinated and do have a functioning brain but are for some reason using it selectively. They really should know better. Something happened to The Left in the late eighties. It used to be a defender of secular universalism, enlightenment rationalism and humanism. It used to believe in common humanity and universal rights, argued that everyone should be treated equally despite their racial, ethnic, religious or cultural differences and looked to social progress as a means of overcoming cultural differences. And today? The Left defends ethnic particularism and group rights; Enlightenment is seen as a Eurocentric project. The Left argues that different people should be treated differently because of their racial, ethnic, religious and cultural differences and worry that social progress is undermining cultural authenticity. I really don't understand this. What the hell happened?
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #5 - September 18, 2009, 04:49 PM

    Afro These lefty tossers would be the biggest victims if & when Islam comes into power anywhere. Gays, unwed moms, nudist beaches, Wicca, neopaganism etc aren't at all liked by Muslim.

    Nor Christians or Jews Tongue. What's your point?

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #6 - September 18, 2009, 04:55 PM

    Quote
    And today? The Left defends ethnic particularism and group rights; Enlightenment is seen as a Eurocentric project. The Left argues that different people should be treated differently because of their racial, ethnic, religious and cultural differences and worry that social progress is undermining cultural authenticity. I really don't understand this. What the hell happened?


    There isn't a single 'left' of which to speak let alone the chimeric one in this post.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #7 - September 18, 2009, 05:01 PM

    Nor Christians or Jews Tongue. What's your point?


    They're liked well enough by all the Mainstream Protestants in USA your country, grudgingly tolerated by Catholics too. As for Jews, the biggest denomination, Reform Jews as well as stuff like Humanistic Jews like them well enough.

    Don't forget awais, it was American freedom of religion which allowed you to revert to Islam, give dawah, attend mosques freely etc.

    It is American freedom which allows these folks like Wiccans & Neopagans, even Satanists to flourish.

    Why, even in Italy, a Wiccan won't be arrested, nor a Roman neo pagan.

    Try worshipping the old Satanic verses trio in Saudi.

    The lack of tolerance in multiple Muslim nations speaks far more than I could.

    You couldn't have switched religions so easily in even Malaysia or Dubai like you did in USA.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #8 - September 18, 2009, 05:04 PM

    That's because the US and Italy are secular, if they were Christian theocracies it would be a different story.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #9 - September 18, 2009, 05:06 PM

    LOL nudist beaches. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #10 - September 18, 2009, 05:06 PM

    There isn't a single 'left' of which to speak let alone the chimeric one in this post.

    I guess you are talking about your vision of "The Left" which obviously is the authentic one, as opposed to the one of the so called "left wing" political establishment.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #11 - September 18, 2009, 05:08 PM

    That's because the US and Italy are secular, if they were Christian theocracies it would be a different story.


    Dubai, Algeria, Malaysia etc aren't theocracies either.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #12 - September 18, 2009, 05:11 PM

    If they pass laws on the subject of changing your religion then they are not secular countries either.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #13 - September 18, 2009, 05:17 PM

    If they pass laws on the subject of changing your religion then they are not secular countries either.


    Other than the post Communist countries & some African nations, few Muslim nations are secular.Also,plenty of even African Muslim nations aren't.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #14 - September 18, 2009, 05:20 PM

    Yes, but that's hardly the point.  The US is a secular state, and that is the reason awais had the freedom to convert, whereas if the evangelicals had their way it would be a Christian theocracy and that freedom would be gone.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #15 - September 18, 2009, 05:23 PM

    Yes, but that's hardly the point.  The US is a secular state, and that is the reason awais had the freedom to convert, whereas if the evangelicals had their way it would be a Christian theocracy and that freedom would be gone.


    Yes, but the Evangelicals, or those Evangelicals who'd bar freedom, haven't ever been in power, thats important to remember, if their views had such power, they'd surely be elected. There are bound to be nutjobs in any faith, how many & what power they have, & what they'd do if they could do whatever is important.

    Besides, even Norway has a state religion. So do many European nations. That hasn't stopped them from giving freedom of religion.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #16 - September 18, 2009, 05:28 PM

    Quote
    Yes, but the Evangelicals, or those Evangelicals who'd bar freedom, haven't ever been in power,


    Unfortunately, they have.  Where do you think the ban on stem cell research and the "teach the controversy" bull shit came from? 

    Fortunately, the founding fathers of the US wrote a secular constitution and Bill of Rights, so their ability to limit freedoms was stymied.  Imagine if the US had had no secular constitution and no Supreme Court to uphold it while George W Bush or Ronald Reagan were in power? 

    Quote
    Besides, even Norway has a state religion. So do many European nations. That hasn't stopped them from giving freedom of religion.


    That's because Europe went through a period called the Enlightenment, twas not always thus.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #17 - September 18, 2009, 05:41 PM

    I guess you are talking about your vision of "The Left" which obviously is the authentic one...


    Again: There isn't a single 'left' of which to speak.

    Quote
    as opposed to the one of the so called "left wing" political establishment.


    If, by the political establishment, you mean New Labour, they aren't left wing in terms of either ideology or policy.

    Notwithstanding, your imaginary 'left' is still just that.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #18 - September 18, 2009, 05:44 PM

    I was just being sarcastic. Forget it.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #19 - September 18, 2009, 05:46 PM

    Yes, but the Evangelicals, or those Evangelicals who'd bar freedom, haven't ever been in power, thats important to remember, if their views had such power, they'd surely be elected.

    Remember the last POTUS? What was his name...?

    Peep this, PBS Frontline, "The Jesus Factor"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZO6LCwEuRE

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #20 - September 18, 2009, 05:56 PM

    Remember the last POTUS? What was his name...?

    Peep this, PBS Frontline, "The Jesus Factor"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZO6LCwEuRE


    Sure, did they catch & imprison\kill you for apostasy & blasphemy?

    How many witches did they burn & drown in USA?

    Its important to appreciate whatever freedoms we have, or they may be lost.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #21 - September 18, 2009, 05:58 PM

    Unfortunately, they have.  Where do you think the ban on stem cell research and the "teach the controversy" bull shit came from? 

    Fortunately, the founding fathers of the US wrote a secular constitution and Bill of Rights, so their ability to limit freedoms was stymied.  Imagine if the US had had no secular constitution and no Supreme Court to uphold it while George W Bush or Ronald Reagan were in power? 


    That's because Europe went through a period called the Enlightenment, twas not always thus.




    +1  Afro Bam! Nailed it! Especially the bolded part.

    Sure, did they catch & imprison\kill you for apostasy & blasphemy?

    How many witches did they burn & drown in USA?

    Its important to appreciate whatever freedoms we have, or they may be lost.


    See Cheetah's post quoted above.

    fuck you
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #22 - September 18, 2009, 06:01 PM

    +1  Afro Bam! Nailed it! Especially the bolded part.

    See Cheetah's post quoted above.


    Meh. Even Iran under the Shah had a secular Constitution. Pakistan had a moderately secular Constitution under Jinnah, until it was reversed & that 4 witness thingy for rape was introduced.  Roll Eyes

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #23 - September 18, 2009, 06:07 PM

    If it had had a secular constitution that wouldn't have been allowed to happen in Pakistan.  I think what you mean is that they an a-religious constitution, that didn't do anything to protect against theocracy.  If they ever truly had a secular constitution it would have been impossible to ban the Ahmadiyya sect.

    As for Iran, that regime was overthrown by violent revolution, which can happen to any system under certain circumstances.  Indeed the current theocratic regime in Iran is not immuned to that danger either.

    And you're still missing the point, Rashna. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #24 - September 18, 2009, 06:10 PM

    Meh. Even Iran under the Shah had a secular Constitution. Pakistan had a moderately secular Constitution under Jinnah, until it was reversed & that 4 witness thingy for rape was introduced.  Roll Eyes


    Neither of those places had their constitution and a tradition of secular government at the national level for over 200 years before the religious extremists gained power at the national level. Plus Iran is also a bad comparison as the religious extremists there rose to power not through popular election, but through revolution.

    fuck you
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #25 - September 18, 2009, 06:15 PM

    Neither of those places had their constitution and a tradition of secular government at the national level for over 200 years before the religious extremists gained power at the national level. Plus Iran is also a bad comparison as the religious extremists there rose to power not through popular election, but through revolution.


    So? Even Latin American nations have full freedom of religion, they too don't have such old constitutions.

    Singapore & Malaysia's Constitutions are as old as each other, Malaysia is Muslim majority, Singapore is Chinese, unsurprisingly Singapore has religious freedom.Little oil rich Muslim in the same region doesn't, both Thailand & Philippines do.

    There are other non Muslim postcolonial nations which have religious freedom, barring some extremists, exactly like USA.

    However, a nation full of religious nutjobs is something overwhelmingly seen in Muslim nations.]


    Facts are unfortunately facts.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Muslims are such Hypocrites - read this
     Reply #26 - September 18, 2009, 06:36 PM

    Actually, much of Latin America was founded on a revolutionary tradition not too much unlike our own. Simon Bolivar led the liberation of much of Northern South America from Spain and established the secular, constitutional republic of Gran Colombia in 1819, a tradition that was continued by its heirs like Venezuela and Colombia. Also, the Mexican Revolution was highly secular and anti-clerical in nature. There are more examples, but I'm not going to list all of them.

    As far as Singapore, they may have religious freedom, but they don't have a whole hell of a lot of freedom overall. I certainly wouldn't want to live in such an oppressive country.

    As to your final point-- no one on this board has ever disputed that to my knowledge. It is commonly accepted that religiosity and religious oppression, generally speaking, is much worse in the Muslim world nowadays than elsewhere-- so you seem to be arguing with yourself on that point as no one is taking a contrary position.

    fuck you
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