The Koran Miracle Claim

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- nothingthere
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The Koran Miracle Claim
OP - August 28, 2009, 02:49 AM

Back in my religious study classes in elem school they used to teach us about all the miracles prophets performed and use those as evidence of God. Mohammad's biggest and lasting miracle was the Koran. An illiterate man receiving the revelation and the material being faithfully recorded and passed on unmolested for centuries.

This was hardly convincing evidence. First of all, this was just a book made of the same material as other books. You could rip it, burn it, toss it, or do anything you could with other books. A real miracle would be impervious to any attempt of destruction. It also needs printers, editors, distribution, bookstores, etc. just like others. It's not dropped from the sky or anything. Not to mention that I couldn't even read or understand the Arabic text. You might as well have given me a book of contemporary Chinese poems and make the same claim.

To round out the miraculous nature of the book we were taught of 2 basic rules:
1- Even the slightest change to the book will render it unrecognizable from the real thing.
2- No one could ever produce even one verse similar to the Koran.

I suppose to young minds those are enough to establish the book as a supernatural phenomenon, but it doesn't take much to refute both.

1- It's true that even changing one word of Koran will produce a different product than the original. But this would also be true of Macbeth, Moby Dick, or The Grapes of Wrath. Or even Misty Mountain Hop (Led Zeppelin) or The Wind Cries Mary (Jimmi Hendrix).

2-To produce a similar text, there are 4 possibilities. A person accepting the challenge could:
- Produce nothing. In that case the claim wins.
- Produce a verse dissimilar to any Koranic verses. The claim wins again.
- Produce a verse similar in style to a Koranic verse but using different words. The claim wins again.
- Produce an exact duplicate of a verse. The claim wins again as the person will be accused of copying.

This doesn't mean that the Koran is a miracle. The challenge is a trap and the premise is absurd. It's like asking someone to produce a number that when subtracted from itself produces zero, only not a real zero. Or a circle that's not circular but it's still a circle.

That's why these so-called teachers are in such a hurry to imprint these ideas ad nauseum on impressionable young minds. By the time the children are old enough to make their own judgments, the flawed reasoning has been cemented in their heads, locked in for life, inaccessible to any tampering by logic and reason. Only a few are fortunate enough to resist and break through the formidable protective layer and escape the illogic.

Consider yourselves lucky.
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #1 - August 28, 2009, 03:16 AM

That's the advantage of only revealing the Quran to one people. Most Muslims don't speak Arabic so you get less people who are able to question certain claims; you can teach them whatever you want to, which means more sheep.

"We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
- Omaar Khayaam
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #2 - August 28, 2009, 06:32 AM

Just came across this while browsing.

http://www.theinimitablequran.com/
- Omaar Khayaam
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #3 - August 28, 2009, 04:04 PM

Quote
Just came across this while browsing.

http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

I had a look at this earlier on. Same tired old arguments thrown up again. I didn't see this person try to cite "scientific miracles" which makes a change. Although he does talk about the unmatching rhetoric.
- nothingthere
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #4 - August 29, 2009, 03:50 AM

Quote from: 20yearstoolong on August 28, 2009, 04:04 PM
I had a look at this earlier on. Same tired old arguments thrown up again. I didn't see this person try to cite "scientific miracles" which makes a change. Although he does talk about the unmatching rhetoric.

yeah, i read it too, thanks for posting. nothing new there, like a broken record. it's unique, it's eloquent, it's rational, whatever. and yet it's none of those to a non-arabic speaker like me. i can go on and on about how beautiful khayam, hafez, or ferdowsi's collections of poems are, but it's irrational to expect a non-persian speaking person to have the same appreciation of them.
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #5 - August 29, 2009, 06:13 AM

As an Arabic speaker I never saw the beauty in the Quran. I could read the Pagan Poems of the Arabians of pre-Islamic times and I would be more amazed at it than the Quran. Plus, I can understand the poems without the need of a tafsir.

So which one is more beautiful and sublime? The Quran which has loads of gibberish or the pagan poems of Imru Al Qais?
- Baal
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #6 - August 29, 2009, 07:51 AM

I once made a comment that only when a muslim's intelligence surpasses their faith, can they leave islam. Of course, i got accused of calling all muslims of having low intelligence when all I meant is that islam itself has a high intelligence quotient. I think you explained it much better then me.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #7 - August 29, 2009, 08:31 AM

Quote from: Al Razi on August 29, 2009, 06:13 AM
As an Arabic speaker I never saw the beauty in the Quran. I could read the Pagan Poems of the Arabians of pre-Islamic times and I would be more amazed at it than the Quran. Plus, I can understand the poems without the need of a tafsir.

So which one is more beautiful and sublime? The Quran which has loads of gibberish or the pagan poems of Imru Al Qais?

+1

Quote from: Baal
I once made a comment that only when a muslim's intelligence surpasses their faith, can they leave islam. Of course, i got accused of calling all muslims of having low intelligence when all I meant is that islam itself has a high intelligence quotient. I think you explained it much better then me.

Couldn't agree more.

...
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #8 - August 29, 2009, 02:33 PM

Quote from: nothingthere on August 28, 2009, 02:49 AM
To produce a similar text, there are 4 possibilities. ...
This doesn't mean that the Koran is a miracle. The challenge is a trap and the premise is absurd. It's like asking someone to produce a number that when subtracted from itself produces zero, only not a real zero. Or a circle that's not circular but it's still a circle.

That's why these so-called teachers are in such a hurry to imprint these ideas ad nauseum on impressionable young minds. By the time the children are old enough to make their own judgments, the flawed reasoning has been cemented in their heads, locked in for life, inaccessible to any tampering by logic and reason. Only a few are fortunate enough to resist and break through the formidable protective layer and escape the illogic.

Consider yourselves lucky.

Brilliant

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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #9 - August 29, 2009, 06:12 PM

dont get the miracle of Muahmmed being illiterate.
So? He didnt write the quran.

I also dont actually believe he was, not that it matters, but I think its a myth. It just doesnt really make sense to me.
He ran his wife's business, as a trader no less. How did he read inventories? Logs? negotiate contracts? Keep roles of his employees? Heck, read a map to know where they were going?
It just doesnt make sense, what did khadija need to hire special people to do all Muhammed's reading and writing? Its a miracle her business didnt go under.

Then after that, he spent a good deal of time as the leader of a small empire. In all that time, he never learned to read or write? First off, why not? Was he really lazy?

so anywhoooooooo, I doubt he was illiterate.

as far as the "produce something like it", I'll leave that answer to Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakariyā Rāzī :

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?! "

as far as the "Its been unchanged! Its a miracle!" argument... I dont even get that one....
The Epic of Gilgamesh has been unchanged for over 4000 years....its a miracle!

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #10 - August 29, 2009, 06:15 PM

Quote from: IsLame on August 29, 2009, 02:33 PM
Brilliant

too damn right!
- Diem
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Re: The Koran Miracle Claim
Reply #11 - August 30, 2009, 05:37 AM

Really? IS the epic of gilgamesh the same? Oh man thats something I've gotta remember...

Also whats up with this site:

www.surahlikeit.com

Maliki yawm ul LULZ
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