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Theme Changer

 Topic: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions

 (Read 7491 times)
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  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #30 - September 19, 2009, 06:32 PM

    Its an interesting point. I do note that there is a hostile attitude towards unbelievers and their religion in the Qur'an which does lead me to believe that this does not help Islam considers the very existence almost of these people a blasphemy. I don't know to be sure I am not convinced that the Meccan Pagans were innocent in all this either but Muhammad to me, its becoming evident, that he was not as peaceful as many Muslims claim. There are a lot of contradicting messages in the Qur'an. At times I do read verses which seem to promote peace but then I am reminded that Allah will punish the unbelievers. This is reiterated in the Qur'an time and time again.


    Did Muhammad have problems only with the Meccan pagans? Nope, he had fights with both pagans & Jews, who'd hitherto lived in peace!

    Jews had allowed Kaab ibn al Ashraf's mom to marry his pagan dad, they didn't honor kill her.  Wink Pagans allowed Waraqa to convert to Islam, they didn't kill him for apostasy from paganism. Jews & pagans didn't fight over religion either.

    So why do you think both will be so roused to fight Muhammad, when they were previously religiously tolerant of each other & other religions?

    As I have shown by the principle of abrogation, the peaceful verses are abrogated by the violent ones which comes later, by the Quranic principle of abrogation.

    Obviously there was good reason for both Jews & pagans to feel insecure about the new religion!

    Didn't Muhammad proclaim that he'd cleanse all other religions from Arabia?

    Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4366:
    It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will Forced conversions on them."

    This is exactly what he did to what is now Saudi, no churches, temples or synagogues are allowed even today & Jews aren't allowed to enter in the land where once Waraqa could easily convert to Xtianity & Kaab's parents could have an interfaith pagan Jewish marriage.

    Muhammad's religion said that Jews would have to pay jizya & live in submission(Quran 9:29) where they'd been equal before, also note  what Quran 9:5 says,

    "Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever you find them, & seige them, besiege them & lie in ambush for them everywhere, but if they repent, take to prayer & render the alm levy, allow them to go their way."

    Take to prayer & render alms levy ie if they pray 5 times & pay the Zakat alms, they'll be allowed to go!

    Its convert or be killed for pagans!  mysmilie_977

    AND the earlier verses advocating peace have been cancelled out by the Quranic doctrine of abrogation!


    Forcible conversions is exactly what Prophet Muhammad did when he marched into Mecca & shattered all idols, & told pagans that they'd remain safe only if they didn't come out to protect their idols.

    If someone today goes to the kaaba, smashes that & the Mecca & Medina mosques & tells Muslims that they'd be killed if they come out to protect the kaaba, then convert them to atheism\any other religion, wouldn't that be forcible conversion?

    And isn't forced conversions & jizya taxes good reason for fighting a new religion?

    So how bad were the Jews & pagans for trying to protect their religion & way of life?


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #31 - September 19, 2009, 06:38 PM

    Blast. Bloody BBC to not allow non-UK to see the program.

    Could somebody fill me in on what that story about a Sudanese theologian who had argued for abrogation of the Medina verses and then been killed for heresy was? What was his argumentation? Does this argumentation fall in better soil in other, more stable muslim countries?

    /Stefan


    Its Abdullahi an Naim, he said that the abrogation verses should apply to Medina verses, ie the later verses than the earlier ones-but his argument is faulty as thats not what Allah in the Quran says. These are the verses:

    016.101
    YUSUFALI: When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.


     "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?" (Qur'an 2:106).

    How does one substitute something which came later with something which came earlier?

    Say I offer someone a strayberry icecream first, then I say sorry, strawberry isn't available, take mango...obviously I'm substituting the first, ie strawberry with mango, rather than the other way round. Tongue

    Also, Muhammad's sunnah showed that the latter verses have primacy. When Muhammad gained power, he destroyed all the idols of idolators, told them that they had to remain indoors to be safe. Then he converted them. He destroyed all the Jewish tribes.

    So we do know from his actions what exactly is abrogated.  yes

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #32 - September 19, 2009, 06:47 PM

    Blast. Bloody BBC to not allow non-UK to see the program.

    Could somebody fill me in on what that story about a Sudanese theologian who had argued for abrogation of the Medina verses .
    /Stefan


    Besides, even the Meccan verses contain loads of hate speech. Like this.

    ?Those who disbelieve, among the People of the Book (Christians & Jews) and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein for ever. They are the worst of creatures.? (98.6)
     
    Not only will disbelievers go to Hell forever, but they're also the "worst of creatures."  Roll Eyes

    Some 80% of the world is Jewish, Christian, Hindu,Buddhist, Taoist, non theist etc.

    Also interesting the Quran says that believers ie Muslims are the "best of peoples," (3:11)

    At least these verses don't advocate any physical violence, but they will still cause Muslims to despise & demonize other faiths, while seeing themselves as superior folks.

    And, there's little guarantee that Muslims will refuse the traditional principles of abrogation, since those are so much more correct according to the Quran & Muhammad's example.

    Thats why Islam has such huge problems reforming, coz the traditionalists, jihadists & misogynists have a far stronger textual basis of asserting their claims.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #33 - September 19, 2009, 06:48 PM

    Sorry Rashna its not Abdullah An Naim. Naim is the student of the guy who said this, his name was Taha something. I've met Naim, very nice chap.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #34 - September 19, 2009, 06:51 PM

    Sorry Rashna its not Abdullah An Naim. Naim is the student of the guy who said this, his name was Taha something. I've met Naim, very nice chap.


    Oh, thanks.  Smiley

    Naim is the student, so I read this on his website I guess, or his Youtube videos. Since he's Sudanese too, I thought its him, he's trying to popularize this theory btw.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #35 - September 19, 2009, 06:51 PM

    Rashna, your argument is the standard argument used why the Medina verses should NOT be abrogated. That is not what I asked.

    I could imagine one argument to be that the Medinan verses were created in an exceptional situation, martial law if you like. And they should then only apply during such situations of threat. Default should be the versions "revealed" during normalcy, in Makkah.

    But since islam seems to consider itself under constant threat from the kaffirs that argumentation may not be relevant.

    No matter what, I do not see this kind of argumentation to be reason for a beheading.

    Dunno, input please.
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #36 - September 19, 2009, 07:02 PM

    Rashna, your argument is the standard argument used why the Medina verses should NOT be abrogated. That is not what I asked.

    I could imagine one argument to be that the Medinan verses were created in an exceptional situation, martial law if you like. And they should then only apply during such situations of threat. Default should be the versions "revealed" during normalcy, in Makkah.

    But since islam seems to consider itself under constant threat from the kaffirs that argumentation may not be relevant.

    No matter what, I do not see this kind of argumentation to be reason for a beheading.

    Dunno, input please.


    Well,people can imagine & interpret away everything they like, also, from Muhammad's life the Medina verses don't seem such an exceptional situation.

    The Meccans had surrendered, there wasn't any reason for him to go around smashing their idols, he could've made the place a religious site for both pagans & Muslims, or at least given the pagans the opportunity to remove their idols elsewhere. Thats' not what he did, he smashed their idols, chanting"truth has come, falsehood vanished as falsehood is bound to vanish," as he smashed idols, told Meccans that they'd only be safe if they remained indoors & didn't come out to protect their idols.

    Then he converted them all to Islam.

    If it was only a military emergency, then such forced conversions aren't neccessary. USA has many wars with Afghanistan\Iraq or Muslim nations, it doesn't exactly break mosques, tell Muslims to remain indoors & convert them to Christianity, does it?

    That isn't part of an Emergency.

    Besides, force was used to coerce these forcibly converted Muslims to remain Muslims even after this phase.

    After Muhammad died, Muslims were eager to cast off the yoke of Islam, they weren't allowed to do that. Many tribes apostatized, started their own religions etc, Muslim armies ordered them to return the call to prayer-azaan with azaan or fight & be killed, although they hadn't attacked any Muslims. Many who refused to return to te folds of Islam were killed.

    So the Sunnah of Muhammad & his followers show not only a defensive, but an offensive violence & forcible conversions as well, even when the other party had wholly surrendered.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #37 - September 19, 2009, 09:42 PM

    Didn't he forgive most of the Pagans who persecuted him though after he conquered Mecca. Granted his destroying idols has given the impression especially in Afghanistan that Muslims now can still destroy statues of Buddha. However I do not see him as all that ruthless although he was very harsh in punishment sometimes. I think Muslims should try to make an argument for interpreting the Qur'an accordng to their time and stituation at least. Many Muslims may leave Islam but many will still be firm in their faith. Islam needs to reform and adopt the peaceful elements in the Qur'an.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #38 - September 19, 2009, 10:07 PM

    When Muhammad was in Mecca he only had a handful of followers so it would've been stupid for him to launch offensive warfare because he would've got obliterated.

    He only began to get offensive and militant as his army of followers grew stronger.

    This is like any political movement.  When they're small and gaining power they say one thing... but when they are IN power that's when their true colours emerge.

    .
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #39 - September 20, 2009, 06:40 AM

    Didn't he forgive most of the Pagans who persecuted him though after he conquered Mecca. Granted his destroying idols has given the impression especially in Afghanistan that Muslims now can still destroy statues of Buddha. However I do not see him as all that ruthless although he was very harsh in punishment sometimes. I think Muslims should try to make an argument for interpreting the Qur'an accordng to their time and stituation at least. Many Muslims may leave Islam but many will still be firm in their faith. Islam needs to reform and adopt the peaceful elements in the Qur'an.



    Well, for one thing, he didn't forgive many, even if they hid behind the curtains of the kaaba, he found them & killed themthe three sources to learn about Islam are the Quran, hadiths & Ibn Ishaq's sira, these are from the sira:,
    "A small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Ka'ba"Ibn  Ishaq 818".
       These included his old enemies who had personally mocked and rejected him


    He also killed two singing girls who simply used to mock him, not even attack him. Remember the hadiths I gave you of him condoning the murders of a Jewess & a slave woman, who'd simply criticized him, not even attacked him? Smiley

    It was a similar case with these slave girls, they didn't even attack or persecuted him, he simply couldn't stand being mocked! Tongue


    "He had two singing girls, Fartana and her friend, who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed" (Ibn Ishaq 819)

    It was at this point that Mecca, one of the most religiously diverse cities on earth, became one of the most oppressive and intolerant.  Muhammad's first order of business was to destroy the idols of the very people who allowed him to preach his religion in their city for thirteen years:
    "The Prophet entered Mecca and (at that time) there were three hundred and sixty idols around the Ka'ba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had in his hand and reciting: "Truth (Islam) has come and Falsehood (disbelief) has vanished." (Bukhari 43:658)

    The prophet of Islam then sent his men out to destroy the temples of other tribes, both around Mecca (Ibn Ishaq 840) and later as far away as Yemen (Bukhari 59:643). 

    With their own religion violently destroyed, most Meccans had no choice but to outwardly "convert" to the very religion they had adamantly rejected for the twenty-one years prior to having a sword at their throat.  To say that this was heartfelt (as some Muslims today actually do) stretches the limits of credulity.

    What would say if say the US Army,(or anyone else) marches into Arabia, destroys every mosque & the kaaba, burns all Qurans & then asks Muslims to convert to Xtianity, even if they convert? Would you call it conversion of choice?

    This is a Sahih hadith showing Muhammad's men idol smashing & forcibly converting(by threats of chopping off people's necks) as faraay as Yemen.


    Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643:
    Narrated Qais:
    Jarir said "Allah's Apostle said to me, "Won't you relieve me from Dhul-Khalasa?" I replied, "Yes, (I will relieve you)." So I proceeded along with one-hundred and fifty cavalry from Ahmas tribe who were skillful in riding horses. I used not to sit firm over horses, so I informed the Prophet of that, and he stroke my chest with his hand till I saw the marks of his hand over my chest and he said, O Allah! Make him firm and one who guides others and is guided (on the right path).' Since then I have never fallen from a horse. Dhul-l--Khulasa was a house in Yemen belonging to the tribe of Khatham and Bajaila, and in it there were idols which were worshipped, and it was called Al-Ka'ba." Jarir went there, burnt it with fire and dismantled it. When Jarir reached Yemen, there was a man who used to foretell and give good omens by casting arrows of divination. Someone said to him. "The messenger of Allah's Apostle is present here and if he should get hold of you, he would chop off your neck." One day while he was using them (i.e. arrows of divination), Jarir stopped there and said to him, "Break them (i.e. the arrows) and testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." So the man broke those arrows and testified that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Then Jarir sent a man called Abu Artata from the tribe of Ahmas to the Prophet to convey the good news (of destroying Dhu-l-Khalasa). So when the messenger reached the Prophet, he said, "O Allah's Apostle! By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I did not leave it till it was like a scabby camel." Then the Prophet blessed the horses of Ahmas and their men five times.

    Is this kind of forced conversions ruthless enough or not?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #40 - September 20, 2009, 06:58 AM

    Didn't he forgive most of the Pagans who persecuted him though after he conquered Mecca. Granted his destroying idols has given the impression especially in Afghanistan that Muslims now can still destroy statues of Buddha. However I do not see him as all that ruthless although he was very harsh in punishment sometimes. I think Muslims should try to make an argument for interpreting the Qur'an accordng to their time and stituation at least. Many Muslims may leave Islam but many will still be firm in their faith. Islam needs to reform and adopt the peaceful elements in the Qur'an.



    Well Heyjustlooking, Muhammad personally forcibly converted people in the regions of what are Saudi & Yemen today. Healso ordered the killing of all those who apostatized.

    Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " [Sahih Bukhari: Book 52, Hadith 260]

    As I have shown in my previous post, he even ordered the killings of those who hid behind the curtains of the kaaba & girls who'd made satirical songs about him.

    Yes, so he forgave people who'd not done much against him & who now accepted his religion, but wasn't that simply a prudent move, rather than an unruthless one?

    I mean Muhammad wanted to start a new religion-which he aspired to spread all over the world, over all lands & all nations, so he needed as many more followers as possible. Preaching in Mecca, he'd got a few, again in Yathrib, he got some more, but why should he be content with few followers? If he could get all the Meccans, other cties & the Yemeni tribes into the folds of Islam after forcible conversions, does it make sense to reduce the number of his followers by killing those who accept his religion?

    As an analogy, Alexander the Great too was a great conqueror, he conquered vast stretches of land, regions & people who refused to submit to him were killed, but those who did submit, wouldn't it be foolish for Alexander to destroy those towns as well?

    Alexander after all wanted to be King over a vast kingdom, so destroying all towns who did submit would make him the King over fewer kingdoms!It'd make sense for him to accept conquered people & enlarge his kingdom, but that isn't coz he's not ruthless, its simply coz thats' the practical thing to do.

    Even after Muhammad died, the converted tribes sought to break free via the Ridda wars-Muslims showed them no pity, they had to remain Muslim, or they'd be killed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridda_wars

    So this is the policy Muhammad & his cronies followed, accept Islam & be a part of Muhammad's army. Don't accept, & Muhammad will come & break your idols or slaughter you(if you're Jewish tribes), then he'll give you a chance to sumbit. If you've ever violently attacked Muhammad & his men, or even made satirical songs about him or criticized him, you're gonna be  Headsman, or he'll forgive you-as long as you remain Muslim(coz then he'll be able to increase the numbers of his faith by new members like you, get more men for attacking others etc!)

    If you apostatize, again you'll be killed!  Headsman

    Where does all this lack ruthlessness?  Huh?



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #41 - September 20, 2009, 09:40 AM

    Hey guys,

    Can someone YouTube this episode of The Big Questions? It's not available for viewing outside the UK.

    Thanks!
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #42 - September 20, 2009, 11:17 AM

    I would like to see it too, it doesn't seem available in India.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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