Re: Arguments against the supernaturals
Reply #1 - September 03, 2009, 01:32 PM
i) What was the point for God in creating the human race? Why give them the minds to think in a pre-destined environment, and then reward or punish accordingly? Are we just for a bit of fun i.e. type of game or experiment for him?
ii) If God/parents gave you your gene pool along with your environment, and you are a product of these, then what is the point of punishing you for something out of your control e.g. if a baby was born to idol worshipping and loving parents in a neighbourhood that discouraged free-thinking, then it would be no surprise that most children brought up in this environment would follow in the footsteps of their parents. Then why make them burn in hell for doing so?
I am sure it would be fairly easy to prove such a case by comparing the cancer survival statistic of a largely atheist nation (the largest being Sweden which is 80% irreligious, or others like Denmark or Switzerland) vs. any Muslim nation.
This would prove that prayers do not work.
If he wanted really wanted us to believe in him then there would be no reason for him to be invisible, so we would know for fact that he exists. Or something even simpler like making sure all copies of the Quran could levitate and magically flip over its pages?
Why would God allow some good, honest people to starve and suffer grave misfortune, and other bad people to have perfectly happy and rewarding lives. Why not still punish/reward us during our lifetimes so we learn from our actions and improve. This would reward the good people in this life also. This would make the human race more inclined to believe in God and his powers of justice, make them better Muslims, and be a means of encouraging a better society.
Also there is not much point in killing people who are sceptical by nature, as they are not all inherently bad people, and do not deserve to be murdered just because they do not believe in something they have not seen? By the same token, why reward those that are more easily convinced by something they cannot see - it is not a meritable act worthy of reward?
vii) How can a finite sin be punished with infinite suffering? How could an all loving god, who is kinder and more compassionate than us, send anyone to burn in hell for eternity. I certainly would not wish that on anyone, including my worst enemy.
viii) Even if we were to follow these rules, don?t the wrong people naturally have a greater tendency to go to heaven. Would those that were more selfish naturally allocate more of their time to devotion in order to reap their personal rewards in heaven. And those that were more carefree choose to spend a lesser proportion of their lives to being subservient, as they spend less time thinking of the consequences, and hence have a greater chance of going to hell? Should it not be the other way around?
ix) Can there really be a spirit inside us that will rise when we are dead. Scientifically there appears to be nothing to show that we have one. Also why doesn?t God just eliminate the devil, as it is the devil that is partly the cause of our problems, particularly in the case of weaker minded individuals, through no fault of their own.
x) If any god is believed to be omnipotent and we are asked to have faith in his/her/their existence, then i propose that any adult of average intelligence could come up with a 'sacred' text which would be as convincing as any that exists at the moment and which could be sufficiently encompassing and robust to avoid being disproved - as long as a particular group could be found to have faith in it. Then 10 generations down the line, with 1000 followers we would have another religion, whose people no longer would be classified as foolish but as followers who need to have their religion respected.
Let?s take again the familiar hypothesis that the universe was created by the fairy as popularised by Dawkins who lives at the bottom of my garden - nobody could disprove this and i am sure that we could happily construct a little book about the exploits of this fairy, (and by the way do not mock this fairy because if you don?t believe that it created the universe then I am sorry, but you also will be burned in hell).
The point is this, serious debate about religion should not start with any religious text, Christian, Muslim or any other flavour, it should start with logic and intelligence.
xi) Let?s take the hypothesis that there was no religion on the planet. Firstly there would be less reason between people to argue and fight over. Like Steven Weinberg (Nobel Laureate in physics) said ?Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion?.
Secondly religion would again breed, probably quicker in the developing world than elsewhere, given the human need for an infallible crutch to believe in. To some it gives hope, and to others it ?fills in the gaps?. This can be proven by the fact that many forms of sun worshipping used to exist, and now a multitude of different religions exist, despite the fact that there can only really be one true religion.
Religion will never disappear, as religion is never debated seriously enough by most believers as they will often prefer to rely on faith rather than factual discussion. Faith can be described by some as 'triumph of hope over reason'. Religion may be nothing more than that.
I would desperately like to believe in an afterlife so I could see people who I loved and have passed away - but unhappily, wanting it to be true does not make it true. This is all highlighted by other cults that became so popular, even in recent times in the developed world when David Koresh from the United States, whilst claiming he was a prophet, and caused the death of over 70 followers who fought to the end against the FBI. They were just a group of disenfranchised individuals before they met him.
Let?s make the assumption that all human beings around the world are equal at birth, some born in a Christian family, some Hindu, some Buddhist etc. If you were to analyse these groups of people across the globe and segmented them by religion, you will find certain characteristic traits emerge. These traits, positive or negative, can only be down to the cultures that have resulted as a direct consequence of the religions themselves.
This is an important point as followers often blame Muslims for not following the religion correctly, thus insinuating that Muslims are less capable as a people of following a code of life than other human beings and therefore not equal? This cannot be the case if we are all equal to begin with and can only be down to the religions, and their resultant cultures, that have created these differences in the first place.
xii) Other arguments I have heard are that is impossible to prove that there is a no God; in the same way that it is impossible to prove that there is a God. This is only because it is impossible to prove that something, that shows no tangible sign of existence (i.e. cannot be seen, touched or heard) and defies all scientific logic, can actually be proven to exist by scientific means. In the same way as it is impossible to disprove that the fairy at the bottom of my garden created us, and will banish to hell those who do not believe in it.
xiii) Also if ghosts/invisible beings/magic are real and acceptable notions, then why in the real world are they derided and seen as a sign of lunacy when taken out of context of religion?
xiv) In the last 250,000 years since man has existed, science has largely played little part in finding out the answers. Only in the last 100 years has science made its exponential rise. Replacing a human heart with a pigs heart, travelling to outer space, manufacturing of artificial limbs are all recent successes, what will the next 1000 years bring? We will certainly further our understanding and continue to answer the remaining unanswered questions. It would not surprise me how far this may eventually go?
Artificial creation of human beings?
xv) Most religions with the possible exception of Buddhism say that their god wants to receive devotion. Praying, going to places to worship them (be they temples, synagogues, Gurdwara?s, mosques or churches), loving no other god etc etc. If a being is omnipotent and an important thing to them is to receive unquestioning devotion, then surely there are better ways to go about it! Would he not prefer us to spend that time by helping those that are blind, old, handicapped etc than on a prayer mat?
Surely such a god would be more concerned about how we live our lives and treasure the little time we have been given. At the end of the day, as a parent I do not expect, nor do I want, my kids to spend the rest of their lives thanking me for the sacrifices I have made for them, nor do I expect a greater being which is infinitely kinder than myself to do so.
Topic: Arguments against the supernaturals