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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam and Culture.

 (Read 4525 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islam and Culture.
     OP - September 05, 2009, 04:47 AM
    From my experience with Muslims and the posts on this website, it seems that the more devout a Muslim is, the more culturally dead they are. I am not trying to be rude, but whenever I see Muslims who live their culture and are proud of it, they are usually very relaxed and liberal. But when it comes to strict and ultra-devout Muslims, its like they have no culture at all. they are all anal and label almost everything under the sun as haraam. I mean, you never see them showing any art/music/dance/values from their culture. Its a shame because many cultures in the Muslim world are very beautiful, ex persian culture. What do you guys think of this?
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #1 - September 05, 2009, 05:41 AM
    Conservative Muslims often confuse that only those that mimic the lifestyles of Muhammad who, lets face it, essentially lived in a barren desert society 14 centuries back where little or no "culture" existed is the "ideal muslim/muslimah". From the facial hair, to the shabby clothes, and behaviour which often seems the lifestyles of what was supposed to be a long gone Arab social era, is ridiculous of what "true Islam" is supposedly.

    They see ANYTHING which Muhammad did not do (or simply did not know of despite all his 'god-gifted knowledge of everything') as haram. When Muslims falsely believe that Muhammad and his amigos are the 'best example to humanity' that essentially is the cause of all things stagnant in the Muslim World.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #2 - September 05, 2009, 05:45 AM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on September 05, 2009, 05:41 AM
    Conservative Muslims often confuse that only those that mimic the lifestyles of Muhammad who, lets face it, essentially lived in a barren desert society 14 centuries back where little or no "culture" existed is the "ideal muslim/muslimah". From the facial hair, to the shabby clothes, and behaviour which often seems the lifestyles of what was supposed to be a long gone Arab social era, is ridiculous of what "true Islam" is supposedly.

    They see ANYTHING which Muhammad did not do (or simply did not know of despite all his 'god-gifted knowledge of everything') as haram. When Muslims falsely believe that Muhammad and his amigos are the 'best example to humanity' that essentially is the cause of all things stagnant in the Muslim World.


    Spot on! But what annoys me is when South Asians/Persians/Central Asians etc are not themselves. What I mean is that they are "Arabized" they only have Arab/Islamic customs, but when it comes to their own culture, they completely discard it.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #3 - September 05, 2009, 05:52 AM
    These people are essentially sheep. They are scared, ignorant, and lack self-esteem; hence the reason why they find solace in the mosques and the mullah rhetoric because they are not open enough to see the world around them without resorting in some "us vs them" mentality (which unfortunately prevails in every religion and every society anyway, but Islam takes the piss out of it).

    They base their lifestyles on what a bunch of raggedy untidy perverted old men (i.e. the ulema) say about Quran and Sunnah and think that by blindly following what they are told they shall attain all the pleasures of Paradise which seem to be at odds with what they are supposed to do in this life.

    Culture is essential for the survival and progress of society continuously. When culture is shunned or discarded for mindless religious nonsense which is not relevant to a culture, that society stagnates decays and eventually collapses into a cesspit of ignorance, violence, hatred, poverty, and self-righteous hypocrisy.

    To me Islam is no different than the outdated and ridiculous norms of the bygone era of the deserts of what is now Saudi Arabia back in the 7th Century CE.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #4 - September 05, 2009, 06:40 AM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on September 05, 2009, 05:45 AM
    Spot on! But what annoys me is when South Asians/Persians/Central Asians etc are not themselves. What I mean is that they are "Arabized" they only have Arab/Islamic customs, but when it comes to their own culture, they completely discard it.


    This has been very nicely put by the author Sir V.S. Naipaul in his book 'Beyond Belief? Islamic Excursion Among the Converted People'


    Islam is in its origin an Arab religion. Everyone not an Arab who is a Muslim is a convert. Islam is not simply a matter of conscience or private belief. It makes imperial demands. A convert?s world ? view alters. His Holy places are in Arab lands; his sacred language is Arabic. His idea of history alters. He rejects his own. The convert has to turn away from everything that is his. The disturbance for societies is immense, and even after a thousand years can remain unresolved. In the Islam of converted countries there is an element of neurosis and nihilism. These countries can be easily set on the boil.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #5 - September 05, 2009, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on September 05, 2009, 05:45 AM
    Spot on! But what annoys me is when South Asians/Persians/Central Asians etc are not themselves. What I mean is that they are "Arabized" they only have Arab/Islamic customs, but when it comes to their own culture, they completely discard it.


    This is partly because these types of ultra-Muslims that you are talking about take seriously the hadiths about the superiority of Arabs to all other people.  So they wear modern Arabian clothing not realising, of course, that the lungi is closer to what Muhammad probably wore than the thobe, and the tiyab or haik probably closer to what the women wore than the abaya or the jilbab. 

    I mean, if you are a sincere, ignorant person trying to be a good Muslim and you read articles like these, won't you think that allah prefers the Arabian way to your Persian or Central Asian way?

    http://www.livingislam.org/fiqhi/fiqha_e76.html

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=9427&CATE=1

    Of course, that said, in my experience, even those people still ate traditional foods at home and spoke whatever their language was (although striving to learn Arabic and swooning over people who do speak it).  I have met converts who think that they can only eat Arab food, listen to Arab music (until they decide it is haram of course), wear Arab clothes in the past. These attempts to Arabise oneself and community have caused problems, I know, for the black American Muslims.  You can read about that here: http://singularvoice.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/salafi-imam-we-must-believe-arabs-are-master-race/

    In my experience, these people don't like any culture at all, not really.  If you come to them with Arabic poetry, they won't like it, they will say 'Quran is the peak of Arabian poetry' meaning 'If you listen to other poetry in preference to Quran that is shirk'.  If you come to them even with traditional songs of Arabia, even the ones without music, they will not like this and will say only nasheeds are acceptable to listen to.  If you talk about the beauty of the Umayad mosque or one of those (which I know were often really made beautiful by Byzantines, Persians, etc.), they will say that it is makrooh or haram to decorate the mosques and quote some hadiths. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #6 - September 05, 2009, 06:39 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on September 05, 2009, 04:47 AM
    From my experience with Muslims and the posts on this website, it seems that the more devout a Muslim is, the more culturally dead they are. I am not trying to be rude, but whenever I see Muslims who live their culture and are proud of it, they are usually very relaxed and liberal. But when it comes to strict and ultra-devout Muslims, its like they have no culture at all. they are all anal and label almost everything under the sun as haraam. I mean, you never see them showing any art/music/dance/values from their culture. Its a shame because many cultures in the Muslim world are very beautiful, ex persian culture. What do you guys think of this?


    Good observation CC - that is pretty much my experience too! Smiley
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #7 - September 05, 2009, 06:47 PM
    I know and I have experienced first hand that the indo/pak youth tend to start rejecting their own cultural roots and often start saying to their ignorant parents that they are commiting "bidah" or "shirk". They start to look down upon their parents and try to throw them offguard with their pronunciation of arabic and verbatim hadith. Towards the end of my journey, these people started to look extremely foolish. In the city that I live in, there are plenty of them about.
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #8 - September 06, 2009, 12:23 PM
    Quote from: 20yearstoolong on September 05, 2009, 06:47 PM
    I know and I have experienced first hand that the indo/pak youth tend to start rejecting their own cultural roots and often start saying to their ignorant parents that they are commiting "bidah" or "shirk". They start to look down upon their parents and try to throw them offguard with their pronunciation of arabic and verbatim hadith. Towards the end of my journey, these people started to look extremely foolish. In the city that I live in, there are plenty of them about.


    Which leads me to another point. Do you think this is some form of rebellion? We all know that teenagers and young adults do tend to rebel against their parents in some form or another.

    I have noticed in Birmingham, the infamous Green Lane Masjid (a salafi masjid) has a much higher proportion of teenagers/young adults who go to the mosque and participate in the various activities involving the mosque than any of the other mosques in the area. The older generation Pakistanis are mostly Barelvi and they hate Wahabbis so much, that the word Wahabbi is often used as an insult! And then if their children get bitten by the Wahabbi bug, and keep telling their parents that their practices and rituals are bid'ah or shirk, and keep correcting their pronunciation, you can see at least an essence of rebellion there.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #9 - September 06, 2009, 12:31 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on September 06, 2009, 12:23 PM
    Which leads me to another point. Do you think this is some form of rebellion? We all know that teenagers and young adults do tend to rebel against their parents in some form or another.

    I have noticed in Birmingham, the infamous Green Lane Masjid (a salafi masjid) has a much higher proportion of teenagers/young adults who go to the mosque and participate in the various activities involving the mosque than any of the other mosques in the area. The older generation Pakistanis are mostly Barelvi and they hate Wahabbis so much, that the word Wahabbi is often used as an insult! And then if their children get bitten by the Wahabbi bug, and keep telling their parents that their practices and rituals are bid'ah or shirk, and keep correcting their pronunciation, you can see at least an essence of rebellion there.


    I often saw this as a bit of an identity crisis. You know? Not quite Pakistani, Not fully British, something in the middle. For those people the thought of turning to their parents backward barelwi belief was like becoming an uneducated bigot with a belief in "pirs" and "taweez". I think they saw the whole salafism as something rational (if not barbaric). The tide has turned now and you will find that most of these people are turning towards traditional islam, which incorporates some of the barelwi customs.

    This was also a way of distinguishing themselves from the hindus and sikhs who managed to integrate within western society and sold themselves out to a hedonistic lifestyle with booze and bhangra gigs!
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #10 - September 06, 2009, 01:40 PM
    The rebellious nature of these youths is no surprise. Given how much control freaks Pakistani parents are, esp. those in the UK who are essentially from villages mostly where everything is monitored and talked about by elders. Kids often have no say and their opinions are discarded as bad-tameezi (lack of respect).

    The Salafi elements allowed some of these youths to use their religion to their advantage because since most older generation Pakistanis in Britain are quite religious themselves, it allowed the angry youths to get away with it and essentially have enough ammo to not being countered as bad-tameezi (though it still is).

    Not to mention the perceived racism by white Brits to Pakistanis and all. I find that odd, since Pakistanis Indians Bangladeshis are more "racist" than the whites and blacks will ever be. Except as a minority they can get away with it.  whistling2
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #11 - September 06, 2009, 02:49 PM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on September 05, 2009, 05:52 AM
    Culture is essential for the survival and progress of society continuously. When culture is shunned or discarded for mindless religious nonsense which is not relevant to a culture, that society stagnates decays and eventually collapses into a cesspit of ignorance, violence, hatred, poverty, and self-righteous hypocrisy.


    Case in point, Afghanistan during the Mujahedeen and Taliban years.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #12 - September 06, 2009, 03:01 PM
    Quote from: 20yearstoolong on September 05, 2009, 06:47 PM
    I know and I have experienced first hand that the indo/pak youth tend to start rejecting their own cultural roots and often start saying to their ignorant parents that they are commiting "bidah" or "shirk". They start to look down upon their parents and try to throw them offguard with their pronunciation of arabic and verbatim hadith. Towards the end of my journey, these people started to look extremely foolish. In the city that I live in, there are plenty of them about.


    My youngest sister-in-law is very much like this.  Always wears hijab and abaya, even at home and whilst my other sister-in-laws will wear traditional Asian clothing to weddings, 'Eid, etc. not her.  She also badgered my hubbie's dad into growing a beard (Abaaaaa!  Why don't you grow a beard?!) and would come up with the most ridiculous fatawa when we were at family gatherings like not clapping and not laughing too much.  At one point I was feeling a bit threatened by her because she seemed to be trying to convert my husband into a mullah (Biyaaaa!  When are you going to take me to Demashq to learn Arabic?!) but when I confronted him about it he just told me to ignore her like he always does.

    Don't get me wrong, she a nice person but I found her naivety and her sanctimonious attitude grating on my nerves!

    After seeing pictures of my husband's parents when they first got married back in Bangladesh, no beards, no hijab but a suit and nice silk sari and then seeing them now, practically under the thumb of their youngest child because she's the most religious and still lives at home I almost wept.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #13 - September 06, 2009, 03:08 PM
    Quote from: Nour on September 06, 2009, 03:01 PM
    My youngest sister-in-law is very much like this.  Always wears hijab and abaya, even at home and whilst my other sister-in-laws will wear traditional Asian clothing to weddings, 'Eid, etc. not her.  She also badgered my hubbie's dad into growing a beard (Abaaaaa!  Why don't you grow a beard?!) and would come up with the most ridiculous fatawa when we were at family gatherings like not clapping and not laughing too much.  At one point I was feeling a bit threatened by her because she seemed to be trying to convert my husband into a mullah (Biyaaaa!  When are you going to take me to Demashq to learn Arabic?!) but when I confronted him about it he just told me to ignore her like he always does.

    Don't get me wrong, she a nice person but I found her naivety and her sanctimonious attitude grating on my nerves!

    After seeing pictures of my husband's parents when they first got married back in Bangladesh, no beards, no hijab but a suit and nice silk sari and then seeing them now, practically under the thumb of their youngest child because she's the most religious and still lives at home I almost wept.


    Does your sis wear the niqab or just the normal hijab? But i can kinda personally relate this story to myself. I knew a Muslim (boarderline salafi) who would go up to me and other Muslims I chill with sometimes and say "thats haraam!!" or "don't do that, thats haraam" and all the fun was ruined and the more "relaxed" Muslims were pissed off lol. Thats one thing I cannot stand about Islam. You try to be devout and you lose your own culture/identity AND almost everything is haraam, AND the only way to have fun is through reading Qur'an, Dhikr, and obtaining "knowledge"!! Cheesy
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #14 - September 06, 2009, 03:12 PM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on September 06, 2009, 01:40 PM
    Not to mention the perceived racism by white Brits to Pakistanis and all. I find that odd, since Pakistanis Indians Bangladeshis are more "racist" than the whites and blacks will ever be. Except as a minority they can get away with it.  whistling2


    No shit!  Same thing goes for the Asians in the US.  They always accuse the white population of being racist but I have experienced racism more from them than from any other minority group in the US.  

    When my very good Pakistani friends essentually adopted me as a little sister and took me to Pakistan to stay with their family they were virtually forced to cut ties with their community because they were getting so much flack for having me as a friend, a gori, no less!

    When questioned about why they valued my friendship over that of the community, my friend just told them that I had done more for them than anyone in the community ever had such as helping his fresh-off-the-plane wife learn English and taking her shopping, helping with their baby, etc.  I don't mean to boast but that is pretty much how it is for an honest gori like me who was just helping out her friends who happen to come from a different culture.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #15 - September 06, 2009, 03:14 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on September 06, 2009, 03:08 PM
    Does your sis wear the niqab or just the normal hijab? But i can kinda personally relate this story to myself. I knew a Muslim (boarderline salafi) who would go up to me and other Muslims I chill with sometimes and say "thats haraam!!" or "don't do that, thats haraam" and all the fun was ruined and the more "relaxed" Muslims were pissed off lol. Thats one thing I cannot stand about Islam. You try to be devout and you lose your own culture/identity AND almost everything is haraam, AND the only way to have fun is through reading Qur'an, Dhikr, and obtaining "knowledge"!! Cheesy


    And by putting your head to the ground and your bum up in the air for Allah!

    To answer your question, no, she doesn't wear niqab, but then again I haven't had much contact with my in-laws for the past few years so that could have changed.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #16 - September 06, 2009, 04:54 PM
    Quote from: Nour on September 06, 2009, 03:01 PM
    My youngest sister-in-law is very much like this.  Always wears hijab and abaya, even at home and whilst my other sister-in-laws will wear traditional Asian clothing to weddings, 'Eid, etc. not her.  She also badgered my hubbie's dad into growing a beard (Abaaaaa!  Why don't you grow a beard?!) and would come up with the most ridiculous fatawa when we were at family gatherings like not clapping and not laughing too much.  At one point I was feeling a bit threatened by her because she seemed to be trying to convert my husband into a mullah (Biyaaaa!  When are you going to take me to Demashq to learn Arabic?!) but when I confronted him about it he just told me to ignore her like he always does.


    Your youngest sister in law sounds exactly like my sister!
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #17 - September 06, 2009, 05:50 PM
    I'm sorry, aliadiere.  Cry

    Do you still live at home with her?  Does she get on your back all the time about being more 'Islamic?'. 

    If I had to put up with that day in and day out I would probably throw her out the window!  Tongue
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #18 - September 06, 2009, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: 20yearstoolong on September 05, 2009, 06:47 PM
    I know and I have experienced first hand that the indo/pak youth tend to start rejecting their own cultural roots and often start saying to their ignorant parents that they are commiting "bidah" or "shirk". They start to look down upon their parents and try to throw them offguard with their pronunciation of arabic and verbatim hadith. Towards the end of my journey, these people started to look extremely foolish. In the city that I live in, there are plenty of them about.


    I totally agree on that one, the Indian Muslims living around my area have no idea about the history and diversity and culture of India they try extremely hard to be like Arabs they consider them selves a separate race from Hindus and other Indians of different faiths.
    cuisine is probably the only thing that some families don't change when becoming arabized but i feel sorry for the Indian children growing up knowing absolutely nothing about thier culture and growing up in a environment where people follow Bedouin Customs and traditions of 7th century Arabia in the 21st Century..
    visions and ambitions never listen to submission
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #19 - September 06, 2009, 07:18 PM
    Quote from: Nour on September 06, 2009, 05:50 PM
    I'm sorry, aliadiere.  Cry

    Do you still live at home with her?  Does she get on your back all the time about being more 'Islamic?'. 

    If I had to put up with that day in and day out I would probably throw her out the window!  Tongue


    Nah, I don't live at home with her. She is married with kids but is always at my house. But what you said about your sister in law is so uncanny, its scary! My sister ALWAYS wears an abaya, is always trying to persuade my dad to grow a beard, and is always telling people fatwas and hadiths!

    It is this attitude that I really dislike. The attitude that you can't live your life by using your own logic and region but must always refer to refer to 7th century arab scriptures, and must live your life to that.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #20 - September 06, 2009, 07:23 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on September 06, 2009, 07:18 PM
    Nah, I don't live at home with her. She is married with kids but is always at my house. But what you said about your sister in law is so uncanny, its scary! My sister ALWAYS wears an abaya, is always trying to persuade my dad to grow a beard, and is always telling people fatwas and hadiths!

    It is this attitude that I really dislike. The attitude that you can't live your life by using your own logic and region but must always refer to refer to 7th century arab scriptures, and must live your life to that.


    Well, my sister on her last visit from the US was going on about the quran and hadith etc. I told her to re-read again and look at it more objectively. She couldn't understand why I revolted, but I think my mother told her about my atheism afterwards. I spoke to her yesterday and she asked me about ramadan. I gave my usual reply that it must be going well for those that are keeping them. She replied saying that she forgot I was an atheist and treating it like it was some passing phase. But hey, I really don't care. It's gonna be one hell of a long phase and they have a long wait ahead of them!
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #21 - September 06, 2009, 09:29 PM
    20years, how can you quote the one post immediately before yours? I meed a tip here! Huh?
    ...
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #22 - September 06, 2009, 09:31 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on September 06, 2009, 09:29 PM
    20years, how can you quote the one post immediately before yours? I meed a tip here! Huh?


    Press reply, then scroll down to the post before yours and press "quote this post" which is in the top left of the previous post.  Afro
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #23 - September 06, 2009, 10:08 PM
    thnx Afro
    ...
  • Re: Islam and Culture.
     Reply #24 - September 06, 2009, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on September 06, 2009, 09:31 PM
    Press reply, then scroll down to the post before yours and press "quote this post" which is in the top left of the previous post.  Afro


    Is this the mighty creation of the Almighty Os? Hats off to Great Os... LOL I never noticed that I could do that LOL
    ...
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