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Theme Changer

 Topic: Free Speech and its Limitations

 (Read 3559 times)
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  • Free Speech and its Limitations
     OP - January 07, 2010, 08:21 AM

    Is freedom of speech really a good thing for everyone to have? Should people be allowed to say absoloutely anything that they want without limitation?

    There are a few articles that I have just read that discuss this. I have only quoted parts of the articles, so feel free to click on the links to read the rest:

    Quote
    Free Speech and its Limitations

     Even free speech absolutists will not deny that unfettered speech can be lethal. Using no tool other than words, it is possible to poison the minds of impressionable young (usually) men, and turn them into killing machines.

    The four suicide bombers who blew themselves up in London on July 7 are a case in point. While we will never know all the words to which they were exposed in the last months of their lives, it is clear that they underwent very dramatic transformations over a relatively short period of time. Typical cricket-playing, soccer-following British lads of Pakistani descent became Islamist fanatics bent on killing as many of the kufars (deniers) as possible.

    Such cases have been almost entirely the province of Islamists in recent years, but not completely. Eden Natan-Zada, the 19-year-old AWOL Israeli soldier who killed four Israeli Arabs earlier this month also underwent a similarly rapid transformation after drawing close to a cell associated with the banned Kach movement in the West Bank settlement of Tapuach.

    The question now facing all Western countries is: Can the poisoning of the minds be prevented without placing intolerable restrictions on freedom of speech? Let us sharpen the question. Remember that those doing the poisoning are rarely involved in the planning of specific crimes. They do not often issue clear suggestions like, “Go blow yourself up on the Waterloo line.” If they did, they would be subject to prosecution as participants in a criminal conspiracy, even though their participation was limited to words and even though no crime was ultimately committed.


    http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2005/09/02/free-speech-and-its-limitations-–-part-ii/



    Quote
    ‘White people have no freedom of speech’

    This is what Jackie Mason said in defense of his “schw*rtze” comment.  Because you know in addition to the general unfairness that Oprah is a multi-bazillionaire even though Jackie is more talented, it’s also grossly unfair that white people cannot speak freely!

    This sentiment is commonly uttered by white people and it takes a number of forms:  It’s about “historical accuracy.” Not giving in to the “PC Police.”  About “oversensitivity” stifling free discussion.  About First Amendment rights–hey, we’re white people, we have rights! Why does everybody except white people have the right to free speech? You have to be so careful now and walk on eggshells because otherwise somebody will get offended about something.

    So why do white people want freedom of speech?

    They want to be able to write racist shit about other people without suffering the consequences.  Because they don’t want their racist speech “stifled.”

    They want to be able to dress up in redface and mock First Nations people.  Because racism is a part of “personal expression” as well as free speech.

    They want to spew nice-sounding words about cultural diversity while doing nothing about racist “South of the Border” parties.

    They want to defend Don Imus’ right to call black college students “nappy headed hos.”  Because “shutting down offensive speech” is against the First Amendment and because black people are haters too!

    They want to wear racist Halloween costumes if they feel like it.  Because it’s “all in good fun” and because they have the right to free speech!  So there!

    They want to display confederate flags.  And then officials are shocked and don’t know what to do when racial tensions erupt into violence.

    They want to use the n-word.  And then defend themselves … why, those black people just misunderstood and misinterpreted what I said!  Because I was actually making a complex free speech argument!

    They want the freedom to use ethnic and sexual slurs.   Because they are against censorship.


    http://resistracism.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/white-people-have-no-freedom-of-speech/



    Quote
    The Westboro Baptist Church and The Freedom of Speech Myth

    The Westboro Baptist Church, founded and operated by Fred Phelps, became notorious by picketing the funerals of gay and allegedly gay people. Fred Phelps was disbarred from practicing law in Kansas in 1979 then in 1989 he was disbarred from practicing in Federal Courts. There is no official affiliation between the Westboro Baptist Church and any known Baptist organization, and all recognized Baptist associations vehemently deny any affiliation with this church.

    Their demonstrating at the funeral of Mathew Shepard put them in the national spotlight. Shepard was a student at the University of Wyoming and was severely beaten and murdered because he was gay. The signs that the Westboro Baptist Church used during the demonstration at his funeral read, “No Fags in Heaven” and God Hates Fags.”

    They have since moved on to disgrace the funerals of slain soldiers killed in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Which has lead to their current legal predicament.


    Lance Corporal, Matthew Snyder was killed in action in Iraq. At his funeral, in 2006, the Westboro Baptist Church came to demonstrate. They held up signs reading “God is your enemy” and “God hates fag enablers.” They sang the song “God Bless America” but substituted the words “God Hates America” in place of “God Bless America.” They carried out their protest while the funeral was in process. Their argument for protesting at military funerals is that the U.S. is being punished by God for being tolerant of homosexuals.

    Lance Corporal, Matthew Snyder’s father, Albert Snyder, sued the Westboro Baptist Church and last week was awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages, $2 million for causing emotional distress and $6 million in punitive damages. Named in the suit was Phelps and his two daughters, both are attorneys.

    Jonathan Katz, attorney for the church, stated that “….the burial was a public event and that even abhorrent points of view are protected by the First Amendment.”

    Should this demonstration have been protected under the first amendment? What does protected speech mean? Does the Constitution protect speech without consequences? Was it speech as defined common sense or was it just malicious conduct and expression?


    http://jimbyrd.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/the-westboro-baptist-church-and-the-freedom-of-speech-myth/


    Freedom of speech is a problematic area. There are people who believe that everyone should have the right to say absolutely anything, but then there are people who want some kind of changes to be made to prevent cases like those in these three articles.

    I picked these articles because they cover racism, Islamic terrorism, and Christian homophobia.



    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #1 - January 07, 2010, 10:18 AM

    I don't know about you, but for me it's easy to see the difference between the right to free speech, and the right to groom young boys for terrorism.   Roll Eyes

    Or the difference between the right to say you hate gays, from the right to demonstrate at a murdered homosexuals funeral and causing distress to the family in question.

    Or the difference between freedom of speech to racist verbal attacks.

    All of those examples were examples of other laws being broken, and it is through those laws that punishment can be made, not through violations of a persons freedom of speech.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #2 - January 07, 2010, 11:30 AM

    The way I see it, yes virtually anything should be allowed, even if its hateful and bigoted.  What should be forbidden is in citation to violent behaviour i.e.  someone urging others to go and hurt people

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #3 - January 07, 2010, 11:57 AM

    Either you can say/express yourself completely or freedom go to hell  lipsrsealed
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #4 - January 07, 2010, 12:45 PM

    The way I see it, yes virtually anything should be allowed, even if its hateful and bigoted.  What should be forbidden is in citation to violent behaviour i.e.  someone urging others to go and hurt people


    And threats of physical violence, along with other speech that could constitute a criminal conspiracy (i.e., if you asked me the best way to break into an old lady's house to steal the shoebox of Krugerrands she keeps under the bed, and I advised you on the best way to do so, this shouldn't be protected speech).

    fuck you
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #5 - January 07, 2010, 02:02 PM

    The way I see it, yes virtually anything should be allowed, even if its hateful and bigoted.  What should be forbidden is in citation to violent behaviour i.e.  someone urging others to go and hurt people

    agree, I might also stretch it too disallowing free speech that is denying others of their basic human rights.   I dont agree with this in principle, but find it is useful because such speech is hate speech that is divisive in society. 

    This might curtail anti-gay, anti-infidel, anti-apostate agendas designed to restrict their free speech, but could also be used against the niqab, or even hijab too.  So it would need to be carefully worded.

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  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #6 - January 07, 2010, 02:47 PM

    agree, I might also stretch it too disallowing free speech that is denying others of their basic human rights.   I dont agree with this in principle, but find it is useful because such speech is hate speech that is divisive in society.  

    This might curtail anti-gay, anti-infidel, anti-apostate agendas designed to restrict their free speech, but could also be used against the niqab, or even hijab too.  So it would need to be carefully worded.



    I'm afraid I didn't quite get what you are trying to say.  By freedom of expression I really meant anything that goes.  Even if it dehumanises others.  If someone tries to apply what they say in practice then obviously that is a different story.  I would also agree with what Q Man said about forbidding acts of threats of physical violence and aiding someone in harming someone else.

    As for the burqa and the hijab, let women wear them, but also let anyone who wants to poke fun at them to do so.  Why am I permitted to laugh at someone going about dressed as a dalek, but not someone in a burqa?  That is what will make people stop wearing the ridiculous thing, not banning them altogether, although I would approve of a ban in schools and work places, because they have uniforms

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #7 - January 07, 2010, 02:59 PM

    i agree with that, but like I said earlier I would also like to disallow free speech that is denying others of their basic human rights, for the same reasons i gave earlier

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  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #8 - January 07, 2010, 04:00 PM

    if you put restrictions in free speech, way call it "freedom"? Huh?
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #9 - January 07, 2010, 04:09 PM

    There is no such thing as true freedom .  Its an expression thats relative, few terms in this context are absolute. 

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  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #10 - January 07, 2010, 04:17 PM

    agree, I might also stretch it too disallowing free speech that is denying others of their basic human rights. 


    Such as? Even hate speech rarely results in direct and immediate denial of someone's rights-- if it does it's no different than the types of things ras and I were talking about. Expressing the opinion that gays should be pushed out of the community should be legal, telling people they need to firebomb gay clubs to push them out should not be.

    I am of the firm opinion that people advocating for taking away people's rights through the democratic process*, unless they are directly advocating criminal activity, should not be punished by the law. Otherwise, where would one draw the line? Could people be jailed for advocating for a ban on the burqua? Or for advocating gun control? Because those things are arguably a restriction on people's "basic human rights"

    ------

    *To clarify, I do not believe the majority may ever justifiably deny the fundamental, natural rights of the minority, but I'm saying that having a democratic system and free speech means that from time to time people will advocate for using the democratic process to such unjust ends-- if we jailed everyone who did that, at least 25% or more of the population would be imprisoned, perhaps much, much more. If you combined everyone in the US who wants to impose strict gun control, official state discrimination against Muslims, impose religious law, ban gays from marrying, outlaw abortion, outlaw flag-burning, keep our draconian drug laws in place, impose blanket smoking bans, I think you'd probably get a majority or at least close to it

    fuck you
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #11 - January 07, 2010, 04:40 PM

    I already realised it needed to be worded with caution as it could be used to stultify free speech.  I am referring to hate speech that is designed to promote division and further splinter already ostracised communities.

    Not as much of a problem in the US, but here in the UK there are radicalised musims that have built up a structure by nurturing these lost souls who then go on to do the same and in the long run produce a larger group of disenfranchised individuals at odds with rest of society.

    If radio DJs are not allowed to refer to Christians & Jews as pigs during their broadcasts, why are Islamic public speakers allowed to do so?

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  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #12 - January 07, 2010, 05:16 PM

    The way I see it, yes virtually anything should be allowed, even if its hateful and bigoted.  What should be forbidden is in citation to violent behaviour i.e.  someone urging others to go and hurt people


    This.

    Only, only when a person directly incites violence should it be clamped down, but that's a public security issue, not free speech.

    I like the American practice regarding free speech, I think people need to vent. Islamists, neo-nazis, evangelicals, black nationalists.. everyone.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #13 - January 08, 2010, 10:36 AM

    I don't know about you, but for me it's easy to see the difference between the right to free speech, and the right to groom young boys for terrorism.   Roll Eyes

    Or the difference between the right to say you hate gays, from the right to demonstrate at a murdered homosexuals funeral and causing distress to the family in question.

    Or the difference between freedom of speech to racist verbal attacks.

    All of those examples were examples of other laws being broken, and it is through those laws that punishment can be made, not through violations of a persons freedom of speech.



    But all of those things come under the free speech amendment, so long as the words spoken are not violent, and the demonstrations are democratic protests which are also covered under American Free Speech laws.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #14 - January 08, 2010, 10:38 AM

    No.  Since when did free speech give anyone the right to gatecrash a funeral to insult the dead, the dead's family and other mourners?

    Free speech is a concept you seem unable to grasp.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #15 - January 08, 2010, 10:45 AM

    http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/right-protest

    Right to Protest - Codified by the First Amendment and upheld over time as one of our most basic rights as Americans, the right to assemble, protest, and petition still continue to come under fire today.

    The right to protest in America is classed under the same amendment that protects freedom of speech.

    Protesting is classified as public free speech under this amendment. This is information provided from this link on the first ammendment.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #16 - January 08, 2010, 10:47 AM

    So I could come to your mothers funeral and have a demo with no consequence?  not just any demo, but I could protest something so vile, that suggests your mother deserved everything she got simply cos she was gay for instance?

    Are you honestly trying to say this is a right I have?  Roll Eyes

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #17 - January 08, 2010, 10:50 AM

    In America, yes you do have that right under the first amendment. That is exactly what the westborro baptist church do, and they are actually protected under the American first ammendment.

    In the UK however, I dont think you could do because free speech is rightfully limited here just as you explain. The laws which limit free speech (inciting hatred laws) in the UK that people seem to hate so much would limit you from being able to do that.

    Hopefully this makes sense.

    Just as much as the Neo Nazi groups in America that there is a thread on elsewhere can have their racist protests asking to ban immigration and kick non whites out of America. This is all allowed in America under the first amendment.

    In the UK however, these would be banned and police action would be taken against them because they incite racial hatred. These racial hatred laws do not exist in America. People can protest and say absolutely anything they want as long as there isnt any violence.

    This is why I do not support complete freedom of speech. As many European laws state, freedom of speech is not compatible with criminal behaviour based on European anti racism and hate speech laws.

    America does not have such laws regarding racism or hate speech. Any such law would violate the first amendment.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #18 - January 08, 2010, 11:03 AM

    I already realised it needed to be worded with caution as it could be used to stultify free speech.  I am referring to hate speech that is designed to promote division and further splinter already ostracised communities.

    Not as much of a problem in the US, but here in the UK there are radicalised musims that have built up a structure by nurturing these lost souls who then go on to do the same and in the long run produce a larger group of disenfranchised individuals at odds with rest of society.

    If radio DJs are not allowed to refer to Christians & Jews as pigs during their broadcasts, why are Islamic public speakers allowed to do so?


    Islame those kind of conversations will still take place privately and reach its intended audiences, might as well let people air it out in public to make it easier to identify the potential trouble makers and let others see people for what they truly are.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Free Speech and its Limitations
     Reply #19 - January 08, 2010, 04:44 PM

    I see what your saying, and you do have a point.  Its a difficult one for me, and if I was in charge of public policy, I would spend far more time on it.  As I am not, its irrelevent, so little need Wink

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