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Theme Changer

 Topic: 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question

 (Read 55854 times)
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  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #120 - September 09, 2015, 12:50 PM

     Afro
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #121 - February 09, 2016, 05:56 PM

    I remember when doubting Islam, I stumbled on this video regarding this verse
    https://youtu.be/1azySjz4edk
    Done by Nouman Ali Khan. Do you think that this is an accurate interpretation? Also it made me question why is this rule not the same for husbands (probably because they could be sleeping with their secret second wife) Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #122 - February 09, 2016, 06:24 PM

    That video just shows how flawed God is. Why did he not create all humans with the ability to understand the verse like that or why not just make the verse clearer if that was the intention all along! My friend also sent me that video a few weeks ago because she's worried about me. People like her need people like NAK to interpret the Quran in a way that they can live with.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #123 - June 09, 2017, 04:02 AM

    It's interesting, I have never met a Quranist before, where can you find them? They are pretty much shunned by all other Muslims it seems.


    Yes, that's what it is.

    If you say in public that you're a Quranist you could as well say you're a disbeliever in most communities.

    One has to have been a fool to become wise
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #124 - July 23, 2018, 12:04 AM



    Quote
    4:34-35"The men, standing upright over the women by what Allah bestowed to some of them over some and by what they spent of their money. Therefore, the righteous women (are) dedicated, preservers of the private, by what Allah preserved. And as for those women from whom you (plural) fear disdain/rebellion, then advise them, including leave them in the beds, and hit them. So, if they willingly complied, then do not aggress on them a way. Surely Allah is High, Great. And if you fear a breech between the two, then appoint a judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware"


    IDRIBOOHUNNA is derived from the root Dhad-R-B and it means hitting of the limbs to serve a function. The word carries mainly three components to the meaning, the hitting of the limbs, a measure and a purpose. This then has many meanings, the primary being to strike, but also traveling or working with the limbs and so on and so forth, but only when the particles FI or AAN are attached to it (see for example 4:94,43:5, or when it is used metaphorically for something that is not physical as in 24:35 where God yadrib/strikes a parable). In the context here, it carries the use of the limb to encourage change of attitude and that cannot happen by a severe beating, hence the reports attributed to the prophet, who himself never hit or mistreated any of his women, about refraining form reaching that point or striking symbolicaly.

    Beating is not promoted nor did the Quran invent domestic violence. The Quran canalizes such behavior by preventing an immediate jump to beating, by giving a very stringent procedure to prevent reaching to that point.

    Men, if they beat their wives, they do so out of anger, and afterwards try and justify it by saying religion allows it. What the Quran is doing is changing their psyche, by preventing them from beating their wives in the original get go, and it does so in a context where it is reforming the status of women and appealing to men's taqwa/God consciousness with verses setting the natural order of Men-Women relationships. Verses such as 30:21 and others
    Quote
    "And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect"

    which point the fact that men and women naturally deal in terms of love and compassion, meaning domestic violence is against the natural order of things.

    In 4:34 the Quran uses the word qawwam, from Q-W-M and it means standing upright. It covers the meaning that the entity stands upright and it also that it helps others stand upright. Man is referred to as being qawwam over the woman by means of the bounties which he has been bestowed with, the bounties which he must use responsibly in the maintenance of his household. In other words, man cannot stand upright over the woman if he does not care and maintain his base, his wife. Qawwam in addition is in a grammatical form of siratul mubalagha, denoting a pattern of behavior. In this case, the verse's opening is stating the husband is one behaving with a pattern of care towards his wife. The word carries also the notion of qima/value, making the qawwam the one who gives value ie to his wife, which negates emotional abuse, a domestic issue often addressed in the Quran.

    As is obvious, domestic violence has nothing to do with the notion of qawwam, meaning the verse itself stipulates that proper treatment of a woman is exactly the opposite of hurting a women. This is why the Quran then goes on to provide an exhaustive means to prevent hitting in the first place, and even when one reaches the point where striking becomes a valid option, it must be done in a way that encourages a change of course and can never contradict the fundamental notion of man being qawwam over the woman.

    Nushuz is "rebellion" in the matters spoken of before that are the basis for the complete destabilization of a household, ie dedication, preservation of the private on a level similar to "what Allah preserved", not male-female relations in general. The root is N-SH-Z and it means elevated that it becomes seen and apparent and noticeable. Conceptually, it is used for anything that is elevated or for when a person elevates themselves above others, as in rebellion or arrogance or disdaining others. This obviously isnt about cases of typical disagreements that arise normally during a marriage which is why the verse then says that if the wife desists from her nushuz "do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great".

    As always when relating details of the Law, the Quran ends with a mention of certain attributes of God to add the spiritual dimension to them and appeal to mankind's taqwa. In this case the verse ends with God being High and Mighty; there is a greater Being who has authority over man so he should not abuse of his position and the attribute of Might is also well suited to the context; men may be stronger than woman, but there is One stronger than man. And if men abuse their power, then let them know that they will have to face the Almighty. This style is used in other similar instances, such as when a man is told of his superiority over a wife in certain aspects of divorce procedures but reminded that this superiority is based on absolute wisdom and should that superiority be misused outside the bounds of wisdom, then there is One mightier than all
    Quote
    2:228"and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise".


    First, the verse urges admonishement. This actually reveals that the Quran wants to engage the situation rationally, appealing to the intellect of the woman which was considered lower than a man's. "those on whose part you fear nushuz" KHAWF means fear of credible danger, as is consistent with all its occurrences in the Quran. So, it is not fear as in suspicion/Dhann. Dhann is to hold an opinion upon uncertain evidence. KHAWF is a fear about probable significant danger but it still does not refer to something obvious/blatant, and there is an element of relativity/subjectivity to it which is why the Quran tells to ITHOOHUNNA/advise them. Even though the reasons for fear are credible, they can still be incorrect. This advising will not be in a harsh manner, as can be seen by its occurrences in the Quran, for example 31:13-19. When you give advice, you give the advice and listen to what they have to say. Therefore if the reason for the fear is diffused, then the problem is diffused.

    If that doesnt work, the Quran tells the husband to distance himself physicaly, by not sharing the bed for example which is an appeal to the emotion of the women.

    Most men, the vast majority, will not even think of beating their wives even after all the gradual steps aiming at stoping her nushuz have failed. 99% of couples will simply divorce at that point. However, the verse has specifically mentionned the option of beating in order to address the issue of violent men, those who have a propensity for such behavior. These men, when they become violent, it is due to intense, impulsive anger and this is what the verse, let alone the whole sura with its reforming of the status of women and appeal to man's sense of responsibility and taqwa, deals with.
    In a situation where a husband fears nushuz from his wife in matters of transgression of the bounds of "guarding the unseen" which is a grave situation for any man of any culture, equal to backstabbing, a violent husband will immidiately think of beating her, but the verse blocks his impulse and tells him to engage the situation rationaly by first reasoning with his wife then refrain from physical contact "admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places". These 2 successive steps are crucial and effective at curbing a violent man's impulses and give him, as well as his wife, the time to cool-down and think.

    This is where step 3 comes into play to serve as a deterrent.

    The wife who stubbornly wants to keep going with her highly injurous attitude towards her husband knows that she just waisted 2 chances at solving the situation peacefully and rationaly and that now, if she wants to stay in the same household she has no choice but to mend her ways or face physical punishement.
    So even before reaching step 3, the wife with whom the appeal to her intellect and emotion through steps 1 and 2 did not work, who wants to stay in the same household and knows that her attitude was highly injurious will refrain by herself, thus settling the dispute.

    In a situation where, after having gone through steps 1 and 2, the wife still thinks she did nothing wrong and decides not to change anything from her attitude while staying in the same household then she still knows that her husband, who believes to have been morally injured, can resort to step 3. So what will she do at that point and what option does the Sharia give her? Will she let her husband beat her while she thinks she has done nothing wrong?

    Fortunately no and this is where step 3B comes into play
    Quote
    4:35"And if you fear a breech between the two, then appoint a judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they BOTH desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware".

     The words are clear and give her the right to appeal to a judge who will in turn designate an arbitrer from her side and her husband's, to settle the dispute and prove her right or if she is proven wrong then she either mends her way and returns to the same household or simply divorce "if they BOTH desire agreement". The verse however clearly prefers reconciliation, as pointed in the words "Allah will effect harmony between them; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware". This is reiterated in 4:128 which states that in case a wife fears nushuz from her husband "there is no blame on them, if they effect a reconciliation between them, and reconciliation is better". 4:128 also explains the important point that attempts of reconciliation should be undertaken as soon as signs of nushuz appear, not when the wife is already abused
    Quote
    "And if a woman fears nushuz". 


    The Quran, contrary to any other religious scripture deals with the issue of domestic violence in such a way that violent men cannot reach the point where they will use force. This means physical punishement is nothing but a deterrant to a woman willing to live in a household and be maintainted by a man while being inclined to backstab him. It is important to keep in mind the verse's aim which is not to give a command to strike, hence the Quran's explicit silence on the modus operandi, but to address the issue of violent men who would be inclined to strike their wives whether with their hand, a stick or chain.

    Quote
    4:19"..Nor should ye treat them with harshness..on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity.."

    Quote
    30:21"And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect"

  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #125 - July 23, 2018, 04:55 AM

    Well Gaston is back with  a bang.... Woman Bang bang ..Quran Bang bang.. Gaston is beating women and beating Quran and beating the readers with his post

    Let me beat the Gaston post  to make it short and sweet
    Quote from:  link=topic=26716.msg878263#msg878263 date=153Gaston2304299

    .....IDRIBOOHUNNA is derived from the root Dhad-R-B.............
    ............. example 4:94,43:5, or when it is used metaphorically........
    .....not physical as in 24:35 where God yadrib/strikes a parable).
    ...........the Quran invent .......
    .......... the Quran is doing ......... ........
    ...........taqwa/God consciousness.........
    ................Verses such as 30:21 In the context here..............
    ...........Quran invent .........
    ............ The Quran canalizes..............
    ...........the Quran .....changing . psyche,
    ............. Verses such as 30:21 and others.....
    ............4:34 the Quran uses the word qawwam,............

    ................ Allah is High, Great"................
    ......................the Quran ends............
    .....God being High and Mighty; ...............
    ..................the Quran wants to engage .........
    ....... Quran tells
    ...............31:13-19. When you give advice, ......................
    ..............4:128 also explains .............


    That sounds better dear Gaston and your 2nd post was NOT gas .. let me read that again
    ............. So here is an ancient scriptures supposedly copying everything from previous fake stories and yet cherry picks the bits that coincidentally make perfect sense, adding further information that agree with factual knowledge?...........

    So Gaston did you ever read Quran??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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