Quick Question about Islamic Divorce

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- deusvult
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Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
OP - February 27, 2010, 09:54 PM

Some background: On another forum the meme that Islamic divorce is better than other kinds of divorce was propagated. I claimed that the State shouldn't get involved at all between 2 or more people who wish to make a contract so any forum of marriage or divorce should be able to occur. In other words complete freedom in marriage for either party to form it how they wish.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of Islamic marriage and divorce?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #1 - February 27, 2010, 10:07 PM

Islamic divorce is fairly easy for men - say "talak,talak,talak" and you are officially divorced.

It's more difficult for women - they need go to Court and prove a case in front of a Mullah that there are sufficient grounds for divorce (Husband not Islamic enough, carrying out "husbandly duties" etc.).

The husband gets the children after a certain age (5 I think)- in Western systems the "best interests of the child" are considered

Something happens with the dowry too - can't remember.

There is no alimony in Islamic divorce.

All in all it's a pretty crude, unequal system. It is quick though.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #2 - February 27, 2010, 10:17 PM

The first problem that pops in my mind when you mention Divorce in Islam is that the man is traditionally the only one who can initiate a divorce. This has meant in practise that many women have been forced to stay in unhappy marriages if the man won't divorce her.
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #3 - February 27, 2010, 10:20 PM

because the only way for her to start a divorce is though the courts if the husband isn't willing ( and I imagine with the paternalistic culture Islam engenders this would be a hit against his pride but this would probably incidental to the analysis), while the divorce is far easier for the husband. So the asymmetrical ability to dissolve the contract would be a disadvantage.

If I remember correctly the woman can petition to have the children in a divorce and it can be granted but if she remarries then the custody of the children reverts to the ex husband. Which creates a quandary for the woman. Work as a single mother and keep her kids or remarry and risk the chance of losing them. That is if I remember correctly.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #4 - February 27, 2010, 10:23 PM

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545612

...divorce, in principle, is the Shari`ah-based right of the husband; he can waive this right and can give his wife a right to divorce herself. There are other cases where the wife can end the marital bond such as Khul`.

In this regard, The European Council for Fatwa and Research, issued the following Fatwa:

“Originally Islam has given the right of divorce to man.

- Woman has the right to execute divorce if this is a condition stipulated in the marriage contract or the husband gives her this right later on.

- A woman can also ask for Khul` in front of a judge who should exhaust all means of reconciliation before sentencing Khul`.

- A woman may agree with her husband on divorce according to legal conditions.

- A woman may also ask the judge to divorce her if it is legally proved she has been harmed. The judge has the right to issue divorce verdict if the wife prove that harm. But the judge should try his best to make reconciliation, as Allah commanded him, especially by arbitrating to people to help him.”

For more information, you are recommended to read the following Fatwas:

- Khul`.

- Inserting Conditions in Marriage Contracts .
- deusvult
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #5 - February 27, 2010, 10:38 PM

Thanks Hassan

Quote
A woman may also ask the judge to divorce her if it is legally proved she has been harmed. The judge has the right to issue divorce verdict if the wife prove that harm. But the judge should try his best to make reconciliation, as Allah commanded him, especially by arbitrating to people to help him.”

What kind of harm are they talking about? Is it to the same standard held in most Western countries ie. spousal abuse, emotional abuse, endangerment, etc?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #6 - February 27, 2010, 10:41 PM

Physical harm, bruises and broke bones I think? Maybe verbal depending on the severity of it. Not sure really.
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #7 - February 27, 2010, 11:10 PM

Quote from: deusvult on February 27, 2010, 10:38 PM
Thanks Hassan

What kind of harm are they talking about? Is it to the same standard held in most Western countries ie. spousal abuse, emotional abuse, endangerment, etc?

Quote from: deusvult on February 27, 2010, 10:38 PM
Thanks Hassan

What kind of harm are they talking about? Is it to the same standard held in most Western countries ie. spousal abuse, emotional abuse, endangerment, etc?

It would include physical and emotional abuse. Is it to the same standard held in most Western countries? That depends on where and where the divorce takes place. In practice in most traditional Islamic societies, no. But if you are discussing with online Muslims they will tell you 'Oh no they're not doing it properly, in Islam you can't treat a wife badly she has more rights than a Western woman blah blah blah..." But the reality of what actually takes place in most Muslim societies speaks for itself. Personally I think the sort of Muslims who argue that Islam gives more rights to women than western societies should either go to the Mullahs in Muslim countries and tell them - or STFU!
- deusvult
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #8 - February 27, 2010, 11:13 PM

I'm not sure if I want to add this into the post I wrote up regarding me not knowing the ins and outs of Islamic divorce.

In fact, the evil capitalist in me thought of starting a halalah business in which I would match slighted ex husbands which with to remarry their ex wives but can't and a new "husband" to do the halalah. I would change the ex husband a fee and guarantee that the new husband would divorce his new wife ( a problem I am aware happens from time to time) and pay some to the "new" husband, and keep the rest for myself. Kind of a middle man businesses. This something unique to Islamic marriage and divorce and I look forward to taking advantage of this to the fullest.

Not that I would do it for real but it kind of is a backhanded way of saying that no Islamic divorce is not the greatest thing in the world. It just creates some dumb ass rules that people have to get around that cause heartache and pain.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #9 - February 28, 2010, 08:54 PM

Regarding physical abuse:
Koran in verse 4:34 orders the husband to beat the wife if he fears discord.
He is also ordered to stop if she returns to obedience.

The level of physical abuse would have to be quite 'visible' and 'provable' beyond her return to obedience.

Many non-arab interpreters try to claim that the verse does not order only beating. However such claims will not work on a muslim well versed in islamic law like a lawyer or a judge, or even a person who speaks arabic for that matter. The Arabic of the koran is quite clear.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #10 - February 28, 2010, 11:06 PM

It is the fact that they will use all means to reconciliate a marriage that just does not work.

In fact, the western standards of freedom of expression, financial freedom, and freedom from oppression just do not exist for women suffering at the hands of their husband unless he has an extremely violent temper which he cannot control in public.

According to womens Aid abuse can be mental, financial, and physical. It involves the children and disrespecting the mother and disregarding her feelings. Some of these things are difficult to prove by an intelligent man who knows how to bend the rules so that it appears "she is just being ungrateful," and as he is a calm person who when asked he adjusts his behavior in front of people and smooth talks everyone he meets so that they are easily manipulated . Now this is the case in the west so imagine it being 1000 times more difficult in a country where the majority of men are abusive by western standards one way or another and this is completely acceptable.

Of course for most women stuck in muslim countries divorce means only having the children for a small space of time whilst your husband has complete control over them (this is islamic according to authentic hadith) and the mother being unable to live far from him (other side of city is the farthest and also islamic) thus ensuring she continues to be dependent on her husband for lack of a welfare system. (It is interesting to note that Islam mentions no such thing as a welfare system for single mothers or women). He only owes her 3 months maintenence in mistreatment cases and none in khul. He is obligated to provide for the children however as for a wife in marriage any excess in Islam is disapproved of and in all schools of thought this only has to be the bare minimun and usually completely unrealistic. If she didn't work or study due to lack of permission it becomes harder and she may lose the children for lack of funds.

Also once she does divorce her husband she is not allowed to live on her own and must return back to a mahram. (although this is not practiced in muslim countries.)

Yes women do have access to divorce by applying to the courts either through khula or mistreatment. However because of islam ordaining a patriarch society which allows abuse the women are under respresented and often times left desolate and emotionally traumitized during marriage, mandatory reconciliation attempts, and the aftermaths of divorce.
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #11 - February 28, 2010, 11:11 PM

Islam has marrying divorcees and widows as a good thing. Problem is there is a weird fascination with virgins. So if you look at Islamic dating sites you'll see a large majority being older women, in the 40's and 50's. I wonder what the stats are in the real world, how difficult is it for a muslim mother, divorced or otherwise to re-marry? And stats on the older she is the more difficult it gets. What I want to know as well is where does this fascination with virgins come from?

btw it's not like I have registered on these sites its just stuff my friends told me
- mujahid
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Re: Quick Question about Islamic Divorce
Reply #12 - February 28, 2010, 11:20 PM

I often wonder the same thing myself.

It always angers me when I go to muslim countries and see ugly fat guys with beautiful young teenagers for wives. And as soon as a women has children and her body goes he dumps her or treats her like she doesn't exist whilst remaining married. I have met so many guys that cheat and marry second wives it is unreal. Usually the first wife is none the wiser.

Or even worse a guy decides to sow his oats until he is in his mid thirties and then marries someone charming and beautiful.
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