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 Topic: Absolutism in Islam?

 (Read 3600 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Absolutism in Islam?
     OP - April 07, 2010, 05:31 PM

    If you are a devout Muslim you are subject to many laws given by the one true God. These are infallible, universal and eternal laws. They may seem reasonable to the believer, but with some scrutiny they tend not to be so universal after all. I can do a few examples.

    The Quran says that apostates will "fuel the Hellfire" with the other unbelievers. This is black and white: either you're in or you're out.
    Now let's look at the grayscales. Imagine an orphan girl, raised as a Muslim until she goes to live with a very, evil man. After several years she has forgotten about her childhood teachings, and all she associates Islam with is the evil man she lives with. Because of this she renounces Islam. She is technically an unbeliever, but for all the wrong reasons. Will she go to the Hellfires? If not, is there any verse in the Quran or elsewhere that says she will not be punished?

    According to the rules of inheritance, the males will inherit twice that of females. This is because the men usually are providers for their own families.
    What if a man dies and leaves two children: a wealthy son and a blind, disabled daughter who is not married, and has no one to provide for her. It seems rather unreasonable that the son should get twice that of the daughter, who really needs it. What if the son is a total jerk and doesn't even like his sister, and doesn't want to help her. Doesn't he then have Allah's blessing to keep the bigger share?

    I would be very interested in seeing verses etc. that give some wriggle room from the laws in the most extreme cases.

    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #1 - April 07, 2010, 05:47 PM

    Allah knows best

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #2 - April 07, 2010, 06:16 PM

    The Quran says that apostates will "fuel the Hellfire" with the other unbelievers. This is black and white


    Actually I don't think the Qur'an says they will go to Hell in such explicit terms if I remember rightly. There are a few verses about those who apostate (turn back after believing) and the Qur'an clearly pours scorn and contempt on them and if I remember rightly says they will be punished - but not sure if it actually says they will burn in Hell in a clear manner.

    Just a point of order you understand.

    It is clear they will burn in Hell - as unbelievers - and Qur'an & Hadith makes it very clear how terrible apostasy is.

    I'm just being pedantic Smiley
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #3 - April 07, 2010, 06:22 PM

    This is just from memory - so if you know an explicit verse about them going to Hell I'd be interested to hear it - I could be wrong.
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #4 - April 07, 2010, 06:38 PM

    Just did a quick check and the closest I can find is:

    16:106 that says they will have عذاب عظيم "a great punishment/torture." - which clearly does mean Hell, but it doesn't say it explicitly.

    Or 4:137  لم يكن الله ليغفر لهم  "God will never forgive them" which again indicates eternal Hell, even though it is not as explicit as you mention.

    Sorry for being so pedantic - I can be like that sometimes lol  grin12


  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #5 - April 07, 2010, 06:43 PM

    I think it might have been Imam Ghazali who said that if anyone got a distorted or negative picture of Islam then they would be dealt with accordingly.
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #6 - April 07, 2010, 06:44 PM

    I think I got it from Quran 2:24
    Pickthall And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.

    I just assumed that apostates were counted as disbelievers. I will be more careful to make more precise statements when quoting the Quran from now on. The very wording of a verse can, after all, be of great importance!

    But I would still like to see if there are any circumstances at all, like immense sorrow, excruciating pain or torture, where renouncing your faith doesn't result in eternal damnation.

    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #7 - April 07, 2010, 06:48 PM

    I think I got it from Quran 2:24
    Pickthall And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.

    I just assumed that apostates were counted as disbelievers. I will be more careful to make more precise statements when quoting the Quran from now on. The very wording of a verse can, after all, be of great importance!

    But I would still like to see if there are any circumstances at all, like immense sorrow, excruciating pain or torture, where renouncing your faith doesn't result in eternal damnation.


    Oh there is no doubt that apostates are counted amongst the Kuffar - in fact they are the worst of the kuffar - so what you said is quite right - we will burn in Hell forever. Wink

    I was just being a bit nit-picky as the Qur'an doesn't actually refer specifically to "apostates" going to "Hell" in any single verse.

    Of course in a general sense of "Kuffar" it does - so in a general sense your comment was quite correct  Afro
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #8 - April 07, 2010, 06:55 PM

    If you are a devout Muslim you are subject to many laws given by the one true God.


    Not really.  Most of the shariah laws come from hadith and the analogy and consensus of the scholars (qiyas and ijma).  This is what you are taught in very basic level fiqh classes.  The basis for the law may be in the quran or the sunnah, but the law itself was derived by some man.  I can see where a simple Muslim who hasn't studied, though, would think that the shariah is from god, but this is not taught at all by the ulamaa.  

    Quote
    These are infallible, universal and eternal laws. They may seem reasonable to the believer, but with some scrutiny they tend not to be so universal after all. I can do a few examples.


    What Big Al and his messenger deemed halal and haram is halal and haram for all time, or the rules laid out are the rules for all time.  But shariah is not static.  Even the "ijtihad is closed" sunni ulamaa come up with new rules or do away with old ones all the time.  It may not be popular or widespread, but it happens, and every madhab has a wide range of rulings, from  majority rulings to minority ones that one may follow.  

    Quote
    Imagine an orphan girl, raised as a Muslim until she goes to live with a very, evil man. After several years she has forgotten about her childhood teachings, and all she associates Islam with is the evil man she lives with. Because of this she renounces Islam. She is technically an unbeliever, but for all the wrong reasons. Will she go to the Hellfires? If not, is there any verse in the Quran or elsewhere that says she will not be punished?


    I would have to see the verse in the quran to comment on it, but if familiar with classical Islamic thought, then you will know that this is an area of ikhtilaf, or difference in opinion, among the scholars.  For example, Abu Hamid al Ghazali says that people who do not have the true teachings of Islam shown to them will not be held responsible for their lack of belief on the day of judgment... So, in theory, if all they knew of Islam was Osama or an abusive father, then they wouldn't be held accountable by god for not becoming Muslim.  Ibn Arabi and Ibn Taymiya, as another example, both said that the hadith qudsi that "my mercy overtakes my wrath" means that eventually, the fires of hell will be extinguished and all will enter jennah - including disbelievers, although they may be at the lowest level of it.  In other words, it's all very uncertain, and that is what Islam is about - putting uncertainty about one's post-death fate into the heart and minds of the believers and controlling them through that fear.

    Quote
    What if a man dies and leaves two children: a wealthy son and a blind, disabled daughter who is not married, and has no one to provide for her. It seems rather unreasonable that the son should get twice that of the daughter, who really needs it. What if the son is a total jerk and doesn't even like his sister, and doesn't want to help her. Doesn't he then have Allah's blessing to keep the bigger share?


    My dear, this happens *every single day* in the Muslim world - and she need not be blind and disabled.  I reckon some of us have female relatives that this happened to at some point.  If it happens, you know what people say?  "It is a test from allah for her," or "Well, he's the man,  he does deserve more / it all." (Do you think that Muslims really even follow these most basic rules?) or "She must have done something shameful we don't know about... clearly she is a bad woman for her own family to do that to her." or "allah will punish him in the next life for what he's doing... what's for dinner?"  (And if not her brother, the belief would be that it is incumbent upon other male relatives to care for her, and if they don't, the sin is on them as well -- but you know, in the afterlife... not here and now).  In theory, according to shariah, the daughter can take the case to the court and the court would award her her portion.  In reality, she may not even get as far as filing the case in court.  Because she's poor, she's disabled, she's a woman, she's under pressure from other family members to let it go, she gives up and gives in, whatever.

    If the parents fear that their son will do this, they can leave a *bequest* to the daughter. The estate is then divided on the quranic inheritance shares *after* the bequests are given.  In this way, parents who only have one child - a girl - can ensure that their entire estate goes to her and not their own brothers, etc.  Of course, the quran being incomplete and vague on most things, this is yet another ruling that was put in by the ulamaa when they confronted real life complications and variety.  

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #9 - April 07, 2010, 06:55 PM

    But I would still like to see if there are any circumstances at all, like immense sorrow, excruciating pain or torture, where renouncing your faith doesn't result in eternal damnation.


    Well one is allowed to renounce faith if being tortured/under duress etc... - there is a verse about it - I'll look it up for you.

    But generally things like immense sorrow and trails of life would not be accepted as an excuse - since these are regarded as tests of your faith that you must pass. In fact there is one verse about 'those who worship allah on the edge and if affliction befalls them they fall off (lose their faith)' - and this being a terrible thing. - I'll look up the verses in a mo.
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #10 - April 07, 2010, 07:04 PM

    This verse allows one to apostate if under duress:

    "Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom." (16.106 )

    This verse warns those who buckle under a test from God will go to Hell:

    "There those who worship Allah, as it were, on the verge: if good befalls them, they are, therewith, well content; but if a trial comes to them, they turn on their faces: they lose both this world and the Hereafter: that is loss for all to see!" (22.011 )
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #11 - April 07, 2010, 08:43 PM

    Hassan, thanks for the verses! I have actually seen the first one before.

    Thanks for the long and thorough answer, Manat, I learned quite a lot from it!

    I would have to see the verse in the quran to comment on it, but if familiar with classical Islamic thought, then you will know that this is an area of ikhtilaf, or difference in opinion, among the scholars.  

    Just out of curiosity; does anyone ever stop and wonder how there can be disagreements in the final, perfect message? I assume people just pick one side and claim it as the real truth?

    My dear, this happens *every single day* in the Muslim world

    Okay, I was not expecting that reply. I was trying to describe a situation that was of such injustice that it went against all better judgement.
    I'm a bit saddened to learn that this was not even uncommon. I see this is of a different idea of justice than the one I'm familiar with.

    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #12 - April 07, 2010, 08:47 PM

    I'm a bit saddened to learn that this was not even uncommon. I see this is of a different idea of justice than the one I'm familiar with.

    Thats because you are comparing chalk with cheese. 

    Whatever you are comparing it too, pales in comparison to 1400 year old Arab Warlord justice.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #13 - April 08, 2010, 06:38 AM

    Just out of curiosity; does anyone ever stop and wonder how there can be disagreements in the final, perfect message? I assume people just pick one side and claim it as the real truth?


    When people do question this, they're told it's abrogation and treated to a long winded lecture on an obscure and confusing concept (confusing b/c it's totally contradictory to the basic Islamic teaching of the quran being perfect and final).  If they question it further, then perhaps all these contradictions to Islam's claims become clear and they end up here.  Cheesy

    Quote
    Okay, I was not expecting that reply. I was trying to describe a situation that was of such injustice that it went against all better judgement.  I'm a bit saddened to learn that this was not even uncommon. I see this is of a different idea of justice than the one I'm familiar with.


    I can count, off the top of my head, five female relatives who were cheated out of their inheritance portion. Well, bullied out of it. At the end of a gun.  Other members of the family were embarrassed, ashamed and still are (this happened some time ago), but no one did anything at the time and only one person tried to make amends with money / property since then.  Another relative said that the misfortunes and poverty of the bully relatives (all male) were "proof" that allah was dissatisfied with them for what they did, but of course, the female relatives have also suffered poverty and misfortune, basically on the same scale.  Interestingly, at least a few of them might have been better off if they'd been able to keep their inheritance and use it, but I also think that their husbands would have gotten their hands on it over the years too.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #14 - April 08, 2010, 07:59 AM

    Hopefully more people will find their way out of Islam, Insh'allah. Wink

    But I have two other questions.

    I was discussing apostasy with som Saudi Muslim who said he thought a death sentence for apostasy was the right thing to do. I asked him what would happen if someone leaves Islam, manages to escape the punishment, and after a few years this person realises his/her "mistake", reverts and moves back home. Would this person be killed? He said "NO!". When I asked for Quran/Hadith to back this view up he quoted 5:34, but if you read this with 5:33 it is quite clear this applies to those who surrender in a war! He said it doesn't matter and 5:34 also applies to apostates who revert.

    Is he right? Does the Sharia say anything about this? Does it have any roots in the Quran/Hadiths?

    We also briefly talked about some of the horrible punishments in the Sharia; dismemberment for theft. He said that if there is any doubt at all, they won't carry out the punishment. Is this right? Btw. I would argue that it is never possible to be 100% sure of a sentence. Witnesses can lie or remember wrongly, pictures and videos can be faked or staged and even if you get a confession, the suspect can be mentlly ill.

    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #15 - April 08, 2010, 01:08 PM

    yes, its says in sharia & sahih hadith "if a muslim leaves his religion, kill him".  See my blog in my signature below, if you need the sources..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #16 - April 08, 2010, 01:27 PM

    Hopefully more people will find their way out of Islam, Insh'allah. Wink

    But I have two other questions.

    I was discussing apostasy with som Saudi Muslim who said he thought a death sentence for apostasy was the right thing to do. I asked him what would happen if someone leaves Islam, manages to escape the punishment, and after a few years this person realises his/her "mistake", reverts and moves back home. Would this person be killed? He said "NO!". When I asked for Quran/Hadith to back this view up he quoted 5:34, but if you read this with 5:33 it is quite clear this applies to those who surrender in a war! He said it doesn't matter and 5:34 also applies to apostates who revert.

    Is he right? Does the Sharia say anything about this? Does it have any roots in the Quran/Hadiths?

    We also briefly talked about some of the horrible punishments in the Sharia; dismemberment for theft. He said that if there is any doubt at all, they won't carry out the punishment. Is this right? Btw. I would argue that it is never possible to be 100% sure of a sentence. Witnesses can lie or remember wrongly, pictures and videos can be faked or staged and even if you get a confession, the suspect can be mentlly ill.


    Someone who speaks the Shahada and means it has both their life and property protected.

    Sahih Bukhari:

    Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387:

    Narrated Anas bin Malik:

    Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #17 - April 08, 2010, 05:38 PM

    We also briefly talked about some of the horrible punishments in the Sharia; dismemberment for theft. He said that if there is any doubt at all, they won't carry out the punishment. Is this right? Btw. I would argue that it is never possible to be 100% sure of a sentence. Witnesses can lie or remember wrongly, pictures and videos can be faked or staged and even if you get a confession, the suspect can be mentlly ill.


    In theory, the rules governing corporal punishment in shariah are quite specific.  Certain criteria must be met, and some of them are set up in such a way that loopholes exist that would let most accused or convicted offenders escape the punishment.

    In reality, which we have seen from Saudi Arabia and northern Nigeria to name two places, the punishments are carried out without even these guidelines being followed.  I personally know scholars - not the most modernist, compassionate people either - who have written to the shariah courts to protest some of their sentences against people, saying that the shariah was not properly followed.  Of course, that was their concern... if the person was truly shown to have had, say, adulterous sex and all the burdens of the law were met, then they *say* that they think the person should be stoned.  Now, in my personal opinion, based on my knowledge of these people, I think that deep down inside, like a lot of people, they don't want to see someone's hands cut off or a person stoned to death, but they can't say that b/c it's in the quran or the sunnah, so they protest against it in a very limited way by saying "Oh the proper shariah wasn't followed."  One of them even said to me that the rules of one of the had punishments (I forget which) were set up so that virtually no one could actually be punished by it.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Absolutism in Islam?
     Reply #18 - April 09, 2010, 03:03 PM

    Thank you all for your answers! I really appreciate it.

    I think I have to refrain from raising so many points in a post, because the things of main interest to me remained unanswered. Smiley

    According to the person I talked to, apostates who return to Islam are not sentenced to death.
    This seems logical to me, but is due to human reason or is it based on Quran/Hadith?

    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
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