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 Topic: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?

 (Read 11886 times)
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  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #30 - May 04, 2010, 09:29 PM

    We didn't. Tailor is too busy probably. Did you see this btw: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9261.msg236342#msg236342
    Top notch stuff.
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #31 - May 04, 2010, 09:33 PM

    Yeah but I need to read again. I think I'm beginning to appreciate Tailor more. He still irks me (why is he still a muslim!! he's too smart...)
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #32 - May 04, 2010, 09:41 PM

    Muslim is just a word. What's really important is what it means.
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #33 - May 04, 2010, 09:42 PM

    Muslim is just a word. What's really important is what it means.


    I liked his wrapping yourself in robes expression.

    But the problem is he creates his own meaning. Why is he doing that? Shouldn't it all be clear?

    Does he even believe in Allah?
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #34 - May 04, 2010, 09:53 PM

    But the problem is he creates his own meaning. Why is he doing that? Shouldn't it all be clear?

    Ijtihad via Lacan?
    Perfectly reasonable tbh.

    Does he even believe in Allah?

    He definitely does. From a Sufi/post-modern philosophy perspective I believe.

    Btw the opinions I expressed above are mine not his therefore it would be best if you were to ask him directly in order to avoid any possible misinterpretation.
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #35 - May 04, 2010, 10:10 PM

    That said, for me, the space in which these judgements, these lives are lived -- is Divine. We are "living" God's judgement in the sense that all our judgements form a "mass" unfolding of choices/lives that constitutes human evolution. Our psychological experience of the universe is one of judgement. God is not judging outside in trascendence -- rather, God's judgement is immanent to our situation -- it IS our situation.


    I think The Tailor is spot on in that.

    I find this kind of approach to religion to be fascinating. Rather than taking the text in a literal way, and therefore rendering it ridiculous, one can look at it in a metaphorical way and see the underlying concepts. It's in those concepts, and not the explicit metaphysical claims of the text, that the truth is found.

    Like the idea of paradise and hell. It is a state in which we live in this life, depending on our actions. God's 'judgment' is the natural consequences of our actions.

    It is, in a sense, an 'after life' as it is the reward or requital of one's past actions.

    Or the idea of eternal heaven and hell. People who are bad and heedless are forever and inevitably bound to the 'fire' of their own pain, which is the natural consequence of their actions.

    'Paradise' is the same. It is only gained by 'repenting' of one's sin, evil, vice, heedlessness, etc., and striving to better oneself and to do good.

    Since both are the necessary consequences of certain perspectives and approaches and since there will always be people who follow either one, both the 'heedless' and the 'believers' will inexorably and eternally exist in their respective states. And of course, there will be those enter both the fire and paradise.

    Maybe Muhammad was really very intelligent, or maybe these so universal concepts could not have failed to be expressed, even in the often bitter and crude words of the Qur'an.

    But then, he did say that 'none will grasp its meaning except men of understanding.' Presumably, he didn't mean mindless literalists.
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #36 - May 04, 2010, 10:22 PM

    Good stuff Zeb!
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #37 - May 04, 2010, 10:26 PM

    Good stuff Zeb!


    Er, I think you'll find all praise belongs to Allah.  Wink
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #38 - May 25, 2010, 01:26 AM

    So according to you what are the big questions? And how have you answered them?

    Apropos I'm reading Dawkins God Delusion, and a bit disappointed when it comes to the philosophical arguments against/for God. I'm now more interested in the big questions, do you have recommendations for any good books on this subject?


    There are many questions to answer bd, but I think most of them boil down to two main questions:- where does everything come from and why do I experience myself as a discrete individual and yet paradoxically know myself to be continuous in the stream of the cosmos? Along with these questions such as the existence/ non-existence divide, the transcendent aspect of reality, the fact that time and space are as they are and so distinct all tie in with those two main questions. Of course, that's just how I have decided to tackle the grand mystery - there is no obvious road to take.

    I have no answers yet but I have started my journey. I will let you know when I find it   Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #39 - May 25, 2010, 02:23 AM

    Quote
    There are many questions to answer bd, but I think most of them boil down to two main questions:- where does everything come from and why do I experience myself as a discrete individual and yet paradoxically know myself to be continuous in the stream of the cosmos? Along with these questions such as the existence/ non-existence divide, the transcendent aspect of reality, the fact that time and space are as they are and so distinct all tie in with those two main questions. Of course, that's just how I have decided to tackle the grand mystery - there is no obvious road to take.

    I have no answers yet but I have started my journey. I will let you know when I find it


    i love your post z10.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #40 - May 25, 2010, 11:51 AM

    There are many questions to answer bd, but I think most of them boil down to two main questions:- where does everything come from and why do I experience myself as a discrete individual and yet paradoxically know myself to be continuous in the stream of the cosmos? Along with these questions such as the existence/ non-existence divide, the transcendent aspect of reality, the fact that time and space are as they are and so distinct all tie in with those two main questions. Of course, that's just how I have decided to tackle the grand mystery - there is no obvious road to take.

    I have no answers yet but I have started my journey. I will let you know when I find it   Smiley


    lol you're awesome dude  Afro
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #41 - May 25, 2010, 01:08 PM

    My dear tialoc, I think you have missed the point there. The idea is not that there are contingent, random elements in the universe - this is quite a trivial point - of course there are quantum fluctuations of a finite, temporal nature that are random effects of the underlying quantum field.
    However, just because the particle-antiparticle creation and annhilation is random does not mean it is uncaused. To see this is to ask a simple question, is it possible for there to be absolute nonexistence and that nonexistence to somehow have a quantum fluctuation? This is an absurdity, the only reason our part of the universe follows quantum laws is because there is an underlying quantum field that drives quantum behaviour. Take away the field and you will take away the cause of seemingly random fluctuations.
    The wider point is that it is impossible to conclude that the cosmos, in its entirety, is finite without adding in a transcendent cause. This is a metaphysical fact. The universe is either eternal or transcendentally caused. (Incidently, even if the universe is absolute and infinite, that doesn't rule out transcendency per se at all either - it seems that a transcendent element is compatible with either scenario.)

    No.
    Read again.

    I am talking about OBSERVATION.

    We cannot claim that observation tells us that all events we observe have a cause.
    No observable event causes anti-pairs to appear. Causality there is not observed.
    No observable event causes atoms to decay.

    You claim that it's the "quantum field" that causes it.
    Except, that its behavior is not observable. Not even predictable. So you cannot observe (nor know) what event in the quantum field caused the event you observed.
    So, basically, you are shifting the lack of perceived causality onto an entity that you cannot observe nor predict... and this lack of prediction (also known as randomness) implies that you cannot associate a prior event that caused an event in this entity that caused the event you observed.

    To summarize:
    You "observe" anti-pairs to appear. Randomly.
    Either:
    - This has no cause that you know of...
    Or:
    - This was caused by another event

    What event in the quantum field caused it?
    You do not know. Because it is not observable, otherwise it would not appear to be random.

    Conclusion: you have observed an event without an observable causing event.

    So I am not saying that something exists that has no cause.
    What I am saying is that, either:
    • You can always deterministically find the causal event for any event. Or...
    • You cannot CLAIM to be able to observe that every event has a cause

    Also, this other strong objection got completely ignored:

    Quote
    How can anyone, through elementary observation, have ever observed that an infinite series of whatever can never be self-caused or even causeless?
    Or, in other words, how can anyone have ever observed an infinite series of anything at all, and thus infer any kind of properties from it? :S


    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #42 - May 26, 2010, 05:34 PM

    I think we are slightly talking past each other tialoc, unfortunately.

    If we are to accept as strong conditions as you propose for any causality claim then we must all become Humists by necessity. In which case, there has never been any event ever observed that can be said to be caused by another event with complete certainty.

    Causality requires an underlying theory, observation will never give us any credibility in causality claims. My point was only that there is a theory that can adequately describe all the quantum events ever observed to be caused - observationally, nothing can ever be proved to be caused.
    But that's just a truism isn't it?


    And I apologise for missing the other objection. I think the point that the article is making is pretty simple. Either everything that exists has always existed or it is caused by something that has always existed (and thus transcendent), in both cases infinity is reached not through observation but through rational thought. Again, I think postulating observation is too strignent a condition to begin any sort of theoretical work in this area, but that's just my opinion.  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #43 - May 26, 2010, 05:39 PM

    i love your post z10.


    what are your thoughts on the "big questions" debunker?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #44 - May 26, 2010, 05:39 PM

    lol you're awesome dude  Afro


    have you made any progress yourself bd?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #45 - May 26, 2010, 05:44 PM

    what are your thoughts on the "big questions" debunker?


    let's just say that i believe that I know what is enough for me to know... but I do enjoy reading your questions, Z10. 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #46 - May 26, 2010, 05:46 PM

    Please do elaborate, I'd like to know what it is you know.
    Knowing is such a rare thing, perhaps the greatest bliss mankind has ever experienced (after love, but then I'm a shameless romanticist).

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #47 - May 26, 2010, 05:51 PM

    oh it's nothing like you think, I believe I know very little, it's just that the little I know is enough for me...

    anyway, keep asking these questions, I'd like to see more Pantheists on this forum... 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #48 - May 27, 2010, 06:58 AM

    have you made any progress yourself bd?


    Here are my latest thoughts Smiley:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10468.msg273775#msg273775
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #49 - May 27, 2010, 07:18 PM

    I think most of them boil down to two main questions:- where does everything come from

    Its always been around?

    Quote
    and why do I experience myself as a discrete individual

    Because your perception is personal & subjective.  Its owned & controlled by you.
    Quote
    and yet paradoxically know myself to be continuous in the stream of the cosmos?

     
    Because you are part of the cosmos, and your interactions are co-dependent with it?

    Quote
    I have no answers yet but I have started my journey. I will let you know when I find it   Smiley

    Alas I think I am nearing the end of my personal journey on such questions, but I will never close the door in case I missed something or something new arises.  However I am personally satisfied with the conclusions I have drawn.

    I question if you have only just begun your journey, and put it to your that your journey began much before that, its just that you have not yet answered them to your satisfaction.

    Perhaps its because you are looking for answers for questions that dont exist.  Like searching for optical illusionary mirage, perhaps mysticim & transcendence dont and never existed?  I certainly cant claim to ever experienced them

    Perhaps you already came across the answer, but it didnt spiritually satisfy you and you discounted it?

    Why does there have to be an answer - rather than why?, cant we accept it just is because it always was, and it always was because it just is?  

    Is it part of man's ego & self-centric arrogance to assume that there needs to be a reason for his existence and all thats around him?  

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #50 - May 27, 2010, 07:32 PM

    Semi grunching: Yes Neo- atheism is a fad, everyone goes back to believing Santa Clause after a while. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #51 - May 27, 2010, 07:33 PM

    *ouch*

    the wit, it cut
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #52 - May 27, 2010, 08:54 PM

    I question if you have only just begun your journey, and put it to your that your journey began much before that, its just that you have not yet answered them to your satisfaction.

    Perhaps its because you are looking for answers for questions that dont exist.  Like searching for optical illusionary mirage, perhaps mysticim & transcendence dont and never existed?  I certainly cant claim to ever experienced them

    Perhaps you already came across the answer, but it didnt spiritually satisfy you and you discounted it?

    Why does there have to be an answer - rather than why?, cant we accept it just is because it always was, and it always was because it just is?  



    I think you're absolutely right about always being on a journey. Perhaps it is consciously deciding to make the journey that makes a difference. We've never really agreed about why consciousness itself is such a great mystery and I don't think we will now so we'll have to leave it at that.
    I am leaning towards your answer for the "everything always being here" because there is no rational way of positing a limit to the universe, it is a nonsensical idea and so it must follow that the universe is infinitely old. However, I can't say that I completely agree with you. After all, I am not even sure that descriptions of reality such as "time" and "space" exist outside of human conceptualisation and as such, it would be absurd to posit infinite time. It would just be a fiction. Atleast, I think, this is a fundamental question to knowing the cosmos.

    I think your point about the universe being fundamentally incomprehensible and without meaning doesn't really avoid the question. After all, if the universe is meaningless that is still the truth about it and this truth can still be acheived. I don't see how the universe being meaningless in any way leads to there being no answer. Being meaningless is still an answer to the fundamental question, even if it is an answer that seems counter-intuitive.



    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #53 - May 27, 2010, 10:24 PM

    lol I am beginning to get heavy post overload, but I'll try my best.

    I think you're absolutely right about always being on a journey. Perhaps it is consciously deciding to make the journey that makes a difference.

    Believe me, I have been on that journey since I was an infant.  My nickname at home was "Why, What, Who, Mr Magoo" - a cartoon character back in the day.

    Quote
    We've never really agreed about why consciousness itself is such a great mystery and I don't think we will now so we'll have to leave it at that.

    Yes, I think you're right.  If I experienced consciousness &  transcendence in the way you & others do, then I would also be making your points and studying further.

    But you must ask yourself the question why I dont experience it, if it really exists then surely we both must experience it?

    Quote
    I am leaning towards your answer for the "everything always being here" because there is no rational way of positing a limit to the universe, it is a nonsensical idea and so it must follow that the universe is infinitely old. However, I can't say that I completely agree with you.

     
    I am not sure about this answer too, but its the best one I have for the moment and works for me so far.

    Quote
    I think your point about the universe being fundamentally incomprehensible and without meaning doesn't really avoid the question. After all, if the universe is meaningless that is still the truth about it and this truth can still be acheived. I don't see how the universe being meaningless in any way leads to there being no answer. Being meaningless is still an answer to the fundamental question, even if it is an answer that seems counter-intuitive.

    I know what you mean, but its not quite what I was getting at.  Of course we should try to find meaning if we think there is cause for there to be a meaning.  But if there is no universal meaning, then you will never find the answer.

    Its like you trying to get meaning out of this phrase

    Quote
    ohopnopjowreohq0weiuijpoi[poijoijo


    You could spend your whole life trying to get a meaning, but if there is none then you will never find the answer.  Might explain why nobody over millions of years has got an answer that most agree with.  Not even religionists will agree with each other, despite using the same books.

    I postulate the universe was not created by a meaningful creator.  In fact I go one step further, and say that it was created out of meaningless, then how can it and why should it have meaning?  And why would it be so difficult to ascertain for millions that have died before us?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #54 - July 05, 2010, 12:44 AM

    It's funny how z10 and I agree on this subject so much that I didn't even have to bother posting a reply
    This is why we're married  001_wub
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #55 - July 05, 2010, 12:45 AM

    Quote
    For Nietzsche, “scientism”—the belief that the modern scientific method is the only avenue of truth, one capable of providing moral truth or moral meaning—is the worst dogmatism yet, and the most pathetic of all metaphysical nostalgias. And it is, in his view, precisely men like the New Atheists, clinging as they do to those tenuous vestiges of Christian morality that they have absurdly denominated “humanism,” who shelter themselves in caves and venerate shadows.


    I think this passage sums some of it up nicely, and sort of says a bit of what I wanted to say in the "future of religion" thread.
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #56 - July 14, 2010, 07:31 PM

    There are many questions to answer bd, but I think most of them boil down to two main questions:- where does everything come from and why do I experience myself as a discrete individual and yet paradoxically know myself to be continuous in the stream of the cosmos?   Smiley


    In what way do you know yourself to be continuous in the cosmos?

    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: Neo-atheism -- passing fad?
     Reply #57 - July 14, 2010, 08:17 PM

    Damn those new atheists! Who are they to devour religion without picking the metaphysical bones out first?  finmad

    We spit 'em out afterwards.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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