Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?

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Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
OP - October 22, 2010, 10:33 PM

What do you think?

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #1 - October 22, 2010, 10:35 PM

For your convenience:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism (pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2][3][4] Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy.[5][6] Fascism was originally founded by Italian national syndicalists in World War I who combined left-wing and right-wing political views, but it gravitated to the political right in the early 1920s.[7][8] Scholars generally consider fascism to be on the far right of the conventional left-right political spectrum.[9][10][11][12][13][14]

Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.[15] They claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism.[15] Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.[16][17]

They advocate the creation of a single-party state.[18] Fascists reject and resist the autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered part of the fascists' nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to be assimilated.[19] They consider attempts to create such autonomy as an affront and a threat to the nation.[19] Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.[20] They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[21]

Fascism rejects the concepts of egalitarianism, materialism, and rationalism in favor of action, discipline, hierarchy, spirit, and will.[22] They oppose liberalism (as a bourgeois movement) and Marxism (as a proletarian movement) for being exclusive economic class-based movements.[23] Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class movement that promotes ending economic class conflict to secure national solidarity.[24] They believe that economic classes are not capable of properly governing a nation, and that a merit-based elite of experienced military persons must rule through regimenting a nation's forces of production and securing the nation's independence.[25] Fascism perceives conservatism as partly valuable for its support of order in society but disagrees with its typical opposition to change and modernization.[26] Fascism presents itself as a solution to the perceived benefits and disadvantages of conservatism by advocating state-controlled modernization that promotes orderly change while resisting the dangers to order in society of pluralism and independent initiative.[26]

Fascists tend to support a "third position" in economic policy, which they believe superior to both the rampant individualism of laissez-faire capitalism and the severe control of state socialism.[27][28] Italian Fascism and most other fascist movements promote a corporatist economy whereby, in theory, representatives of capital and labour interest groups work together within sectoral corporations to create both harmonious labour relations and maximization of production that would serve the national interest.[29] However other fascist movements and ideologies, such as Nazism, did not utilize this form of economy.[29]

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #2 - October 22, 2010, 10:54 PM

Yes. That wiki description of Fascism is eerily reminiscent of Islamist viewpoints.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #3 - October 22, 2010, 11:01 PM

No, i disagree. Just like christianity and judaism is islam a totalitarian ideology, if taken as a literalistic approach, but accepted totalitarianism similar to moderate islam, although not intended. Totalitarianism is one aspect of facism, but it would be too easy to equate the two in saying, that islam is facistic. But one thing has to be remembered:
Most facists were religious, although their view of their religion might have been another of what was normal until then. And in pretty religious regions the acceptance of facism is extremely high, as a best example antisemitism, which led many christians on the religious countryside to vote for Hitlers Party, because the catholic church still went on to call jews "godmurderers!" And so today we have parties like the hamas, which use facist methods. But the basis is not the same as the facist one, originally facist ones were not fundamentalist muslims, but more or less nationalists, which is different. But in general there are parallels.

Religion itself supports authoritarian thinking, which in general so makes an important parallel to facistic methods.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #4 - October 22, 2010, 11:34 PM

Good post, mardas.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #5 - October 23, 2010, 12:35 AM

Und jah! Der Fuhrer selbst auch erwahnte uber diese. Dass die Reich habe seine Inspiration aus Islam.

Die Paschtunen aus NordWestlichen Pakistan sind gutes Biespiel fur Arier.

Die "Mujahideen" vertritt die Arier Krieger-Geist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaYj2X_feYI

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #6 - October 23, 2010, 02:07 PM

Quote from: mardas on October 22, 2010, 11:01 PM
No, i disagree. Just like christianity and judaism is islam a totalitarian ideology, if taken as a literalistic approach, but accepted totalitarianism similar to moderate islam, although not intended.

I see your point, I really do. However, from my understanding of mainstream Christianity (i.e. the West today) and Judaism (e.g. Israel); they are far more liberally progressive in a democratic fashion than mainstream Islam.

I don't like everything Geert Wilders says, but he is bang on right about "Islam being fascist" comment, which so far 75% of people here agree with.

One other point: let's re-read the wiki article:

Fascists reject and resist the autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered part of the fascists' nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to be assimilated.[19] They consider attempts to create such autonomy as an affront and a threat to the nation.

Is it coincidences Muslims have a hard time integrating into the West? Is it a coincidence Germans/Merkel has been vocal?

I don't think so but feel free to suggest other reasons, if you feel there are some that better explains this issue.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #7 - October 23, 2010, 03:42 PM

Absolutely not. I am fucking sick and tired of people calling all authoritarian reactionary ideologies "fascist". Lemme break it down for you ignorant fuckers:

All fascism is an authoritarian and reactionary ideology

Not all authoritarian and reactionary ideologies are fascist

The distinguishing feature of fascism is corporatism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism. This is missing from Islam, and therefore Islam is not fascism.

Furthermore, in fascism the state is a proxy for God, and obviously Islam focuses on their sky cult rather than the state as the object of veneration/worship/obedience.

FINALLY BUT PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANTLY, it's completely fucking retarded to say a religion developed in the 7th fucking century is identical to a mostly secular ideology developed in the middle of the 20th century, specifically as a reaction to the post-World War I failure of liberal democratic capitalism in Europe and threat of Communist revolution. This is some seriously brain-dead fucking shit.

Does Islam share some similarity with fascism? Sure, it shares many, as do most reactionary and authoritarian ideologies do. But is Islam fascist? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. People who say this are as fuckin stone-cold dumb as those who say Obama is a Communist, and the fact that the "Yes" votes are winning is a good fuckin indication of how far down this forum has sunk lately in terms of intellect.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #8 - October 23, 2010, 04:37 PM

No, Islam is not fascist. Fascism is a thoroughly modern movement, and primarily a product of democracy gone wrong, or democracy in decay. Its like the mould on an old orange, with democracy being the orange. A religion started in 7th century Arabia, (a pre-democratic society), cannot possibly be fascist in nature. You can't have the mould grow before the orange exists.

There are, however, movements within Islam today which are fascist. Hizbut Tahrir are the clearest example, they are definitely an Islamist reaction against modern democracy, and its no coincidence that they enter into electoral pacts with neo-Nazis in parts of Europe. Birds of a feather an all that.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #9 - October 23, 2010, 05:00 PM

Can always count on Cheetah not to be an idiot.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #10 - October 23, 2010, 05:06 PM

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #11 - October 23, 2010, 05:17 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on October 23, 2010, 04:37 PM
Birds of a feather an all that.

Nick Griffin and the BNP used to flirt with Islamic extremists, the holocaust denying, hate all the Jews type.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #12 - October 23, 2010, 05:52 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on October 23, 2010, 04:37 PM
No, Islam is not fascist. Fascism is a thoroughly modern movement, and primarily a product of democracy gone wrong, or democracy in decay. Its like the mould on an old orange, with democracy being the orange. A religion started in 7th century Arabia, (a pre-democratic society), cannot possibly be fascist in nature. You can't have the mould grow before the orange exists.

There are, however, movements within Islam today which are fascist. Hizbut Tahrir are the clearest example, they are definitely an Islamist reaction against modern democracy, and its no coincidence that they enter into electoral pacts with neo-Nazis in parts of Europe. Birds of a feather an all that.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #13 - October 23, 2010, 10:19 PM

Quote from: Rev. Winton Dupree on October 23, 2010, 03:42 PM
The distinguishing feature of fascism is corporatism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism. This is missing from Islam, and therefore Islam is not fascism.

Good point. Yes I guess economically they aren’t exactly the same. But check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economic_jurisprudence#Economy_in_the_Caliphate

There are similarities between Islamic economics and leftist or socialist economic policies. Islamic jurists have argued that privatization of the origin of oil, gas, and other fire-producing fuels, agricultural land, and water is forbidden.

Quote from: Rev. Winton Dupree on October 23, 2010, 03:42 PM
Furthermore, in fascism the state is a proxy for God, and obviously Islam focuses on their sky cult rather than the state as the object of veneration/worship/obedience.

Yes, it’s different in WHAT the faith is, but the essence of mind indoctrinating worship/obedience/duty is very much so there in Islam. Come on, good Muslims have to pray/say something when they sneeze, go on a journey, step out of a house, step into a house, 5 times a day prayer, before they eat something, hearing about a person's death, losing something important, before making love … etc. Two minute hate 1984 ? Not far from it in my opinion !

Quote from: Rev. Winton Dupree on October 23, 2010, 03:42 PM
FINALLY BUT PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANTLY, it's completely fucking retarded to say a religion developed in the 7th fucking century is identical to a mostly secular ideology developed in the middle of the 20th century, specifically as a reaction to the post-World War I failure of liberal democratic capitalism in Europe and threat of Communist revolution. This is some seriously brain-dead fucking shit.

Quote from: Cheetah on October 23, 2010, 04:37 PM
A religion started in 7th century Arabia, (a pre-democratic society), cannot possibly be fascist in nature. You can't have the mould grow before the orange exists.

Just one thing. There were double quotes put around the word fascist for a reason. This is that indeed, technically – TECHNICALLY – Islam cannot being TECHNICALLY and HISTORICALLY fascist, but in terms of the essence which drives fascism, there are hallmarks all over it: socially, economically and religiously, I think. Perhaps I should reword the question to "Do you think Islam has the essence of fascism?"

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #14 - October 23, 2010, 10:25 PM

Why even use the term fascism then? Why ask the question? Isn't it obvious that both fascism and Islam are right-wing and totalitarian belief systems and as such will share some similarities?

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #15 - October 23, 2010, 10:36 PM

The degree as to how much in common, people's opinions and discussing the similarities/differences was generally the point - but I mainly ask it because I personally see the resemblances in essence so striking, especially after reading 1984 that I think Geert has a serious point which people overlook just as much as the pejorative word that is fascism itself, ironically.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #16 - October 24, 2010, 07:00 PM

World English Dictionary
fascism (ˈfæʃɪzəm) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— n
1.    any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
2.    any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
3.    prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism

If you want to be pedantic about it you might say that Fascism merely pertains to a relatively modern European political movement, but like many words, meanings change and come to incorporate more general concepts.

And yes, traditional Islam incorporates certain concepts that are definitely characteristic of a 'fascist' ideology.
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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #17 - October 24, 2010, 07:07 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on October 24, 2010, 07:00 PM
World English Dictionary
fascism (ˈfæʃɪzəm) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— n
1.    any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
2.    any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
3.    prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism

That definition is bullshit. The World English Dictionary and any other dictionary that strips the word from its historical and political context can suck my dick.

Quote
If you want to be pedantic about it you might say that Fascism merely pertains to a relatively modern European political movement,

Pedantic my ass.

Quote
but like many words, meanings change and come to incorporate more general concepts.

Yes, I understand that "fascist" has been stripped of its specific political and historical meaning and is now just an empty epithet bandied about by people with no fucking understanding of history and lacking an intelligent political analysis, but that doesn't mean I'm bound to accept this meaningless, bullshit definition of the word used by politically/historically ignorant, thoughtless people.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #18 - October 24, 2010, 07:09 PM

But I wasn't being pedantic and insisting that only ideologies connected to a modern European movement are fascist. The point I was making is that fascism is a reaction against democracy and concepts like universal and individual rights. That is the essence of fascism, it is a fundamentally reactionary movement.

That's why I say that no ideology born in a society which had not yet developed those concepts can be considered truly fascist, they had no democracy to react against. Such ideologies are traditional hierarchical/authoritarian, or maybe even totalitarian. To call them fascist is as facile and superficial as calling Jesus a hippy.

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #19 - October 24, 2010, 07:10 PM

I abstain, meaning that i see some common grounds between islamism and fascism but on the other hands they are different as many people pointed out...

in the end, i would rather live in fascist Italy than Saudi Arabia....

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Re: Question: Is Islam "fascist" ?
Reply #20 - October 24, 2010, 07:21 PM

Quote from: Bardhi_i_zi on October 24, 2010, 07:10 PM
in the end, i would rather live in fascist Italy than Saudi Arabia....

Heh, I think I might too. At least I could have sex and drink and be openly atheist in Fascist Italy without repercussion.

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