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 Topic: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings

 (Read 6279 times)
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  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #30 - February 20, 2011, 08:18 PM

    The issue here is the issue of inequality and injustice within the framework of what is mainstream Islam.
    And the remedy is not more tolerance (one only tolerates what one dislikes in the first place) but rather a struggle for emancipation.


    i don't disagree with this

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #31 - February 20, 2011, 08:30 PM

    @Abu

    What a catamite you are. First you steal my timeless sig and now you refuse to answer the questions put to you by the Murtadeen like a woman of ill fame lying to the police.  If this evasion continues I will put up a poll requesting your banning as outlined here. I won't ask you again.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #32 - February 20, 2011, 09:14 PM

    "I think there's a deep-rooted assumption in the secular queer community that you can't be gay and believe in anything, apart from yourself or materialism."


    I found that really amusing.

    Its basically the same line that believers use about British society as a whole - that it is selfish, shallow, materialistic, contrasted with the deepness and supremely special lives led by those whose values come from Islam. Except transposed to gay culture where it can be stereotyped doubly. I guess some prejudices never die, they just transmute.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #33 - February 20, 2011, 09:23 PM


    My sister's work colleague is a gay Hindu lad. He got married to his non Hindu boyfriend in a civil union and then got a relative to do a religious blessing reciting sanskrit verses. If you can't get a conservative religion to accomodate you, I guess you have to improvise if it means that much to you.

    Having said that, like Cheetah, I can't get my head around people whose existence is so loathed completely by the religion they belonged to that they set so much store by the formality of its marriage ceremony. Bar the liberal sects of Christianity (credit to the Quakers where credit is due) and some limited schools of reform Judaism, religions are almost unanimously one big gigantic patriarchal font of prejudice when it comes to homosexuality, ranging from mainstream disdain and bigotry to outright fanatical violent hatred.

    Each to their own, but I can only use my imagination, being neither a believer nor gay, but if ever something would push me into a private understanding of a relationship with God away from the strictures of formal religion surely it would be being the demonised, loathed, persecuted target of the hateful homophobic huntsmen of whatever clericalism I was accidentally a part of.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #34 - February 20, 2011, 09:42 PM

    Bar the liberal sects of Christianity (credit to the Quakers where credit is due) and some limited schools of reform Judaism, religions are almost unanimously one big gigantic patriarchal font of prejudice when it comes to homosexuality, ranging from mainstream disdain and bigotry to outright fanatical violent hatred.


    Not just the Quakers, billy

    The Episcopal Church of America (our version of the Church of England) has over 2 million members and has called for full civil rights for homosexuals since the 70s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_%28United_States%29#On_gender_and_sexuality

    The PCUSA also has over 2 million members, and while they haven't quite purged homophobia from their doctrine, they are getting close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_%28U.S.A.%29#Homosexual_ordination

    There's also the United Church of Christ (descended from the old New England Puritan churches), with over a million member that has been on the front-lines of the marriage equality struggle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ#Same-sex_marriage

    And there are also A LOT of liberal Reform and even Conservative Jewish congregations and organizations who are for full equality for homosexuals. I see them and the liberal Christians showing up to rallies for marriage equality and such all the time.

    It's a different situation here than in the UK-- while much of the country may be mired in reactionary religiosity, in the Northeastern US at least, progressive Jewish and Christian congregations and organizations are quite common and have a high profile. They are still the minority, even in this part of the country, but they are a very large, active and well-organized minority.


    fuck you
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #35 - February 20, 2011, 09:47 PM


    Good for them. Like I said, credit where credit is due.






    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #36 - February 20, 2011, 09:58 PM

    Well, she's the one who is picking sides. All she's doing in this article is bashing on LGBT communities, they are "islamophobic", they don't "believe in anything but themselves and materialism" etc. While she has nothing but hopeful eyes for the Muslim community. As though LGBT communities are homogenous and all LGBT people are exactly the same way... and as though LGBT people have absolutely NO reason to be suspicious of Islam, or of Abrahamic religions in general.


    Yeah, its not even that, its the tone of what she says later. No doubt there are gays who are bigoted, but to then go from that and say that there is a deep rooted prejudice against anyone who is gay and is a Muslim because they are so fiendishly prejudiced against anyone who 'cares' for something 'apart from yourself or materialism' is an incredibly crass and religionist thing to say, and a stereotype of gays rooted in a smug attitude that religious believers (including Muslims) have towards non believers. I mean, its a caricature of non Muslims to begin with, and its a caricature of gays too. I mean, its bordering on homophobic itself if a straight person said it.

    And thats not to mention that if there is a wariness of Islam amongst some gays its because like Christianity and other religions, gays have been and continue to be hated, persecuted, demonised, and treated like lepers by religions, especially adherents of chest thumping religions, NOTWITHSTANDING the reformist schools withing certain ones. To make out its an issue of a deeper hostility to anything that doesn't conform to X(shallow and materialistic stereotype of gays) is just silly.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #37 - February 20, 2011, 10:10 PM

    I found that really amusing.

    Its basically the same line that believers use about British society as a whole - that it is selfish, shallow, materialistic, contrasted with the deepness and supremely special lives led by those whose values come from Islam. Except transposed to gay culture where it can be stereotyped doubly. I guess some prejudices never die, they just transmute.

    Yep, that one irked me too.

    I genuinely don't mind if two lesbian girls consider themselves to be Muslims and want their union to be officially Islamically recognized. In fact I think that such an approach a la Irshad Manji potentially is quite subversive. However when reading the article I felt that tribalism and stereotypical thinking are literally jumping at me from the most unlikely source.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #38 - February 21, 2011, 02:58 AM

    Why? I could never understand that.

    There are so many ways to find and define one's identity. Why do people feel the need to impose tribalistic identities onto themselves? What's wrong with universal humanism?


    I asked something exactly along those lines of this person I mentioned who identifies as Muslim purely as a tribal identity. According to her, it's "the way things are" and she wants to be someone who helps that tribe (which even she realizes is not homogenous) expand their outlook. I can respect that, and that is the reason I respect people like Mona Eltahawy, Tarek Fatah and some others. Though I am not cut out to be that kind of person, I think they are needed within those communities (or "tribes") if there is to be any kind of social progress in them.

    Many people in the world may know intellectually that we are all human, but on an emotional level, they can't help but identify with "their people" at the expense of everyone else. This is also a result of centuries of colonialism and inter-warfare between peoples who identify with various tribes (including within these tribal groups like sectarianism). People consider their families, their closest of kin and neighbourhood to be "their people" and everyone else as "the other".

    It's just a shame because a lot of times that means that even beneficial things like advances in sexual egalitarianism, LGBT rights, come to be seen as something "they" do and "we" don't. For me, I think of Audre Lorde, a black, bisexual LGBT activist as one of "my people" like I think of Omar Khayyam as one of "my people" and of Bulleh Shah as one of "my people" and Rabindranath Tagore as one of "my people".

    I think universal humanism is a great idea that progressives in all communities strive to take their communities towards. Just along the way though, I guess, they sometimes feel the need to add fuel to the fire of separation, partly to stand up against those who have historically been their rivals and/or oppressors, and partly because it keeps their own credibility within these groups.

    It's an interesting phenomenon and I can't say I ever really had the stomach to want to do these things "from the inside" but I think of social liberation movements like relay races - some people who are naturally critical and deconstructionist in their approach are needed to challenge and confront the dogmas that reproduce these complacence-breeding ideologies. Some people who are better at building bridges are needed to show that LGBT people/social progressives/atheists/agnostics/secularists are not hostile, alien creatures. Some people are needed within these religious/cultural institutions who are capable of helping these identity groups, ideologies and the institutions founded upon them to open up to our current views on human rights, reason, etc.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #39 - February 21, 2011, 03:05 PM

    Geez why can't we just stay out of other people's sex lives. There are more important issues humanity needs to face; like world hunger, violence and poverty. Not whether or not Adam is screwing  Eve or Steve.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #40 - February 21, 2011, 03:17 PM

    They've got an awful long way to go before they gain acceptance.  I wish them luck, but I can't help but think the same as I do about gay Christians, etc - why bother?  Why stay in a homophobic religion when they could just leave?


    Ditto

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #41 - February 21, 2011, 03:23 PM

    Presumably because they believe in Allah and that Mohammed was his prophet.  Then they do all kinds of mental gymnastics to reinterpret their scriptures in a way that doesn't offend their basic morality and nature.  People of all religions do it, and not just gay people in homophobic religions either.

    Good luck to them, but if I was in their shoes I wouldn't bother.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #42 - February 21, 2011, 03:26 PM

    Which is kind of a given because you are an atheist and they aren't.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #43 - February 21, 2011, 03:28 PM

    If I was in their shoes it wouldn't take me long to become an atheist.  But you're right, I spose, I never had the emotional need to hold onto God that seems to be present in many others. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #44 - February 21, 2011, 03:40 PM

    Quote from: Cheetah
    If I was in their shoes it wouldn't take me long to become an atheist.  But you're right, I spose, I never had the emotional need to hold onto God that seems to be present in many others.


    It's more than just "an emotional need to hold onto god". As Irshad Manji writes of her own unwillingness to let go of Islam - to which she was in her own words "clinging on by her fingernails - it's about "Identity". "Muslim" forms the core of the sense of self of people who describe themselves thus to such an extent that letting go of it would leave them feeling utterly lost.  At least the gays will, on the whole, not leave any progeny to impose this identity upon.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #45 - February 21, 2011, 03:59 PM

    At least the gays will, on the whole, not leave any progeny to impose this identity upon.


    Umm. Here in the 21st century lots of "gays" are adopting, making babies with each other and in general, having families, kids and progeny.
     Roll Eyes

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: British gay Muslims seek Islamic weddings
     Reply #46 - February 21, 2011, 04:49 PM

    Quote from: allat
    Umm. Here in the 21st century lots of "gays" are adopting, making babies with each other and in general, having families, kids and progeny.


    Good point.
     

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
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