Wife beating in Islam

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- three44
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Wife beating in Islam
OP - April 10, 2011, 10:20 PM

Hey guys,

Can you give me some feedback on this please? (Don't mind the delay between video/audio sometimes, can't do better with open source software)
Please be honest, I want to improve it where possible.
If you have any other useful sources/arguments that help debunk Converted2Islam, let me know.
Thanks!

http://youtu.be/8hujJYfG9cM

(Sorry about the stuttering, I'm not a fluent speaker )

EDIT: I'll add some annotations to clarify some issues due to audio/video delay

<dust>: i love tea!!!
<dust>: milky tea
<three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
<dust>: mm
<three>: it's definitely not called neck
<dust>: lol
<three>: what's the word i'm looking for
<dust>: throat
- muddy
- The Drama King
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #1 - April 10, 2011, 10:34 PM

Great.. What software did you use to record while you drag?

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- three44
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #2 - April 10, 2011, 10:38 PM

It's built in in my linux, I simply zoom and the screen follows my mouse. Really great.
Everything was recorded on my screen with open source "Desktop recorder".

<dust>: i love tea!!!
<dust>: milky tea
<three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
<dust>: mm
<three>: it's definitely not called neck
<dust>: lol
<three>: what's the word i'm looking for
<dust>: throat
- ChinaDoll
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #3 - April 10, 2011, 10:52 PM

nice video !!! don't worry you sound awesome !

"its fashionable to be an ex Muslim these days"
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #4 - April 10, 2011, 10:55 PM

C2i claims are bizarre and don't improve the verse. The guy is delusional
- yeezevee
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #5 - April 10, 2011, 11:13 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 10, 2011, 10:55 PM
C2i claims are bizarre and don't improve the verse. The guy is delusional

yes.. Every Muslim guy is delusional to you

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #6 - April 10, 2011, 11:17 PM

Not true yeezevee. Please never reply to me. You are on ignore.
- ateapotist
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #7 - April 10, 2011, 11:27 PM

Great video, three44. It was a bit long, but it came across as thorough and clear.

Using that software sounds like a quick and easy way to make such videos. The only drawback is that when viewers can see your desktop it looks slightly unprofessional, but never mind.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

Baloney Detection Kit
- three44
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #8 - April 10, 2011, 11:36 PM

Yeah, I agree it looks unprofessional, but it gets the message across.
It's the best I can do, my resources are limited on linux.
My original video was 12 minutes, had to cut a bit

<dust>: i love tea!!!
<dust>: milky tea
<three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
<dust>: mm
<three>: it's definitely not called neck
<dust>: lol
<three>: what's the word i'm looking for
<dust>: throat
- yeezevee
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #9 - April 11, 2011, 07:09 PM

Quote
Quote from: Hassan on April 10, 2011, 10:55 PM
C2i claims are bizarre and don't improve the verse. The guy is delusional

Quote from: yeezevee on April 10, 2011, 11:13 PM
yes.. Every Muslim guy is delusional to you

Quote from: Hassan on April 10, 2011, 11:17 PM
Not true yeezevee. Please never reply to me. You are on ignore.

., Sorry If I read you I will reply, whether you ignore me or not..

You have the right to do what you like Hassan., But what I have realized from reading many of your responses is the following., It appears that "YOU ONLY LIKE THOSE FOLKS WHO CRITICIZE ISLAM that have to be either EX-Muslims or Muslims". This I have seen at CEMB and in FFI. Well unfortunately, neither I am Ex-Muslim, or Muslim or Non-Muslim. I am a zebra Hassan, And I care very little whether some one Ignores me or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYXHKLmpVBs

Ha! THIS GUY IS THE WORST ENEMY OF ISLAM I have ever seen

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Kenan
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #10 - April 11, 2011, 10:11 PM

Quote from: three44 on April 10, 2011, 10:38 PM
It's built in in my linux, I simply zoom and the screen follows my mouse. Really great.

Which distro do you use?
- three44
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #11 - April 12, 2011, 11:01 AM

Linux mint (most user friendly), but this zoom/mouse following is a basic feature in all distros I think.

<dust>: i love tea!!!
<dust>: milky tea
<three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
<dust>: mm
<three>: it's definitely not called neck
<dust>: lol
<three>: what's the word i'm looking for
<dust>: throat
- Mohammed Muhi
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #12 - April 13, 2011, 12:24 AM

Didn't Zakir Naik say, something, like a tooth brush?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Truth-Exposed/161271890587080
http://www.youtube.com/user/MohammedMuhiUddin
- three44
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #13 - April 13, 2011, 12:10 PM

That's something many apologists says.
Hassan pointed out in his video that some also say a feather or a hanky instead of the miswak.
But neither the classical tafsir of Ibn Kathir/Jalalayn or the modern scholar Maududi mention this as is seen in my video.

Anybody know if there are old (pre-19th century) authentic works that interpret the verse like this? Or is this a recent apologetic?
Either way, it doesn't make sense as it is clearly 'a last resort method [if nothing else works]'...

<dust>: i love tea!!!
<dust>: milky tea
<three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
<dust>: mm
<three>: it's definitely not called neck
<dust>: lol
<three>: what's the word i'm looking for
<dust>: throat
- nj7
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #14 - April 13, 2011, 03:02 PM

Here's some possibly useful links I noted down when I looked into this ages ago:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/007.smt.html#007.2803
4th paragraph says "You too have right over them, and that they should not allow anyone to sit on your bed whom you do not like. But if they do that, you can chastise them but not severely."

As for the toothbrush thing, that's in al-Tabari's tafsir on 4:34 (http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=13&Page=1 select surah and ayat and it's sentence/paragraph labeled 7442). Here's someone's translation:

"I said to Ibn ‘Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. "

"hitting that is not harsh" is الضَّرْب غَيْر الْمُبَرِّح (literally beating non-severely)

There are several similar quotes before and after of people saying it's not a severe beating. The next one 7443 says Muhammad said the same thing (beating non-severely is with a toothbrush or similar). The previous one 7441 has Qatada saying that ضَرْبًا غَيْر مُبَرِّح (beating non-severely) means أَيْ غَيْر شَائِن (which is non-disgraceful/ outrageous/ obscene/ indecent). I'm using the translation from here for شَائِن

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- Prince Spinoza
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #15 - April 13, 2011, 03:50 PM

Hitting with a toothbrush won't deter anyone, and it's supposed to be describing a progressively worse system of punishment.
- nj7
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #16 - April 13, 2011, 04:19 PM

Agreed. Just to be clear, the links I posted were just so three44 can see what sources the toothbrush advocates might use to defend the wife-brushing interpretation. I don't for a second think that's what 4:34 really means. They have a bit of a stronger case if they point to the stuff that says the beating is non-severe (ignoring the toothbrush quotes), though it's still an awful thing to defend. It's easy to see that even the Qatada explanation might be used be some people to justify hurting women in a way that leaves no publicly visible sign of injury. There are also hadith that encourage kindness to wives so I hope they read those too.

A quick google search shows that some people are claiming the phrase I quote in my previous post ضَرْبًا غَيْر مُبَرِّح means the following:

"'dharban ghayra mubarrih' which means 'a light tap that leaves no mark'"
http://www.answering-christianity.com/umar/beating_rebuttal.htm

I think the 1st word is a form of the same word as in 4:34 (beat). ghayra means without (or "non-" as I translated it). mubarrih means "violent, intense, severe, acute, sharp, excruciating, tormenting, agonizing." (see http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=612) I'm guessing the "light tap that leaves no mark" people are basing their claim on Qatada's explanation that it means ghayr sha'in = not disgraceful/ outrageous/ obscene/ indecent [beating] (see my previous post above).

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- three44
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #17 - April 13, 2011, 04:28 PM

Thanks for the info nj7!

<dust>: i love tea!!!
<dust>: milky tea
<three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
<dust>: mm
<three>: it's definitely not called neck
<dust>: lol
<three>: what's the word i'm looking for
<dust>: throat
- nj7
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #18 - April 13, 2011, 11:47 PM

You're welcome I've just had a look at your vid and I see c2i makes a dubious claim about it refering to spanking daughters (though he admits the not sharing beds part seems to refer to wives). A big problem with his claim there is the next verse, 4:35 - "If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things." (Yusuf Ali)

"between them twain" (بَيْنِهِمَا baynihimā , 3rd person dual) clearly refers to the same people as in the previous verse and it says to appoint an arbiter from his family and an arbiter from her family. A daughter does not have a seperate family to her father!

4:35 does not make sense if 4:34 talks (even partly) about fathers and daughters.

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- three44
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Re: Wife beating in Islam
Reply #19 - April 14, 2011, 12:03 AM

Yeah, the claim that it refers to daughters is ludicrous; apologists know no limits, sometimes I'm really amazed at how they interpret some verses in an overly good way.
I'd also bet it's his own interpretation, as the tafsir I've shown all seem to agree.. If this is the case, then it's really dishonest of him to give credibility to his interpretation by merely saying that the tafsir "don't agree" on this matter.
And he has 18.000 views on that video, mostly liked.
Posted mine as a video response, but don't think he'll allow it. Again, dishonest.

<dust>: i love tea!!!
<dust>: milky tea
<three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
<dust>: mm
<three>: it's definitely not called neck
<dust>: lol
<three>: what's the word i'm looking for
<dust>: throat
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