Atheist Censorship

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- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #390 - May 01, 2011, 07:52 PM

Why do you ask, z?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- z10
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #391 - May 01, 2011, 11:10 PM

Well, seeing as we have no way of stepping outside of ourselves to confirm whether or not there is a Sun that will rise tomorrow, yet we are able to call such a statement, however limited, a form of knowledge, do you think it is possible to have similar knowledge of the divine without stepping outside of our own limitations?

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
- Grouchy
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #392 - May 02, 2011, 03:25 AM

When I said a valid argument I meant that in layman's terms in the above example(quoting z10). Not necessarily a logical validity.

What is being disputed here(“it does not follow”), in more precise terms, is the validity of the inference leading to the conclusion, and conclusively the conclusion itself.

Quote from: Grouchy on May 01, 2011, 05:44 AM
The act of deriving(inference) a conclusion is made by a conscious agent. That conscious agent's conclusion could be valid(true) or invalid(untrue) regardless.

As I explained. The act of deriving(inference) is to be valid, regardless of the inherit truthfulness of the conclusion(we are both at an agreement here). Since z10's(zbd's indirectly) inference was invalid to begin with it made the conclusion invalid.

That is the heart of the matter.

The inference is invalid. The argument is invalid. There is no more to it.

Quote from: yeezevee on May 03, 2011, 09:40 AM
Grouchy what is the good reason for picking up an innocent girl as Osama bin Laden?
- Prince Spinoza
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #393 - May 02, 2011, 03:48 AM

Well that's a u-turn. In any case I'm not convinced by your supposed refutation of z10's assertion, but then like I said I'm not yet bored enough for epistemology.
- Grouchy
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #394 - May 02, 2011, 03:57 AM

This whole discussion has careened off into many directions to be honest. I felt like I was arguing for ten different things at the same time.

Anyhow. Let us all agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that.

Quote from: yeezevee on May 03, 2011, 09:40 AM
Grouchy what is the good reason for picking up an innocent girl as Osama bin Laden?
- Grouchy
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #395 - May 02, 2011, 04:43 AM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on May 02, 2011, 03:48 AM
Well that's a u-turn.

No. It actually was not.

I just made my argument more precise. The deriving(inference) of the conclusion was wrong, and therefore the conclusion indirectly. Which I still stand by.

I should have just articulated it more precise.

Quote from: yeezevee on May 03, 2011, 09:40 AM
Grouchy what is the good reason for picking up an innocent girl as Osama bin Laden?
- Ishina
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Re: Atheist Censorship
Reply #396 - May 02, 2011, 06:15 AM

Quote from: z10 on May 01, 2011, 11:10 PM
Well, seeing as we have no way of stepping outside of ourselves to confirm whether or not there is a Sun that will rise tomorrow, yet we are able to call such a statement, however limited, a form of knowledge, do you think it is possible to have similar knowledge of the divine without stepping outside of our own limitations?

Even if there was nobody around to describe the sun to me, I’d still know about it and I’d still quickly learn that it rises every morning. It is a circle of hot light in the sky. I can see it with my own eyes and feel its heat on my skin. It has risen all the days of my life. I know this thing intimately. If you were then to say this circle is in fact spherical, you'd have to explain what spherical means and then show me how the sun is spherical, and it would have to be consistent with other things I already know about it. If you were then to say the sun is in fact divine, you'd have to explain what divine means and then show me how the sun is divine, and it would have to be consistent with other things I already know about it.

The point isn’t if we can know the divine, the point is: what is the divine?

If you define the divine as knowable, then it’s a knowable thing according to you. But you can’t define it into existence. And you can't simply define me as knowing a thing without me actually knowing a thing.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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