Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK

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- HighOctane
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #30 - June 11, 2011, 09:36 PM

What about some analysis and likelihood predictions? It is a no brainer I think - I don't feel it will be very effective, unless there is some sort of regulatory bystander who is paid to be translated every bit of what is happening in every single case.

I think these courts should be banned or at the very least be given a licence to run on which gets extended IF they prove to not cause harm. But oh no ... how Islamaphobic!

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #31 - June 11, 2011, 11:23 PM

Give us some analysis and predictions, HO and we'll take it from there. If not, I'll just wait and see what happens in the real world.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #32 - June 12, 2011, 01:22 PM

Well I think a good start would be: out of all the Sharia cases relating to women's right, of them:
- how many have spoken out against their treatment if they feel it was unfair?
- what is the English literacy rate of the women?
- how many of the women speak English?

----

Quote from: Cheetah on June 11, 2011, 07:44 PM
That's the whole point of this new law, to make it easier to seek redress and make Sharia arbitrators liable if they abuse their power.

On a side note: is there absolutely nothing at all a woman can do today if she feels Sharia courts have over stepped their legal boundary?

Also: law is one thing, enforcing it is quite another.
It is the law to attach lights on a bike at night and switch them on - but not enforcing this has little consequence. As a result, the police don't wait around to catch such petty things.

It is the law to drive at 30 mph around school areas - not enforcing this has real consequences and so we have speed cameras, "school patrol" road signs with alternating lights, driving regulations/test to warn drivers to take care around such busy areas of roads.

Having good laws is all well and good. But in reality - I think how it is applied is just as important.

Good laws in the real world = principle x enforcement

Principle here is somewhat good.
Enforcement of this law is not even suggested as far as I've read.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #33 - June 13, 2011, 11:41 AM

As Cheetah says, it is to be welcomed in its own right, and is a very good step forward. It provides a base camp from which further scrutiny and opposition can be built from.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #34 - June 13, 2011, 12:58 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on June 11, 2011, 09:22 PM
How effective will this new proposed law be exactly?
For the women it it already causes a misery for, what percentage do you feel this law will help them?

I think is a good move forward. But I dislike the skillful piece of politics that is required to tame the horrendous issue for something that should be banned to start with.

Yes, yes. Ban consensual arbitration (do you also think the Jewish religious tribunals should be banned, self-hater?), and minarets, and burqas, and islamic student groups-- we must defend freedom by taking it away from certain groups of people. This law doesn't take away people's choice to privately arbitrate disputes in a religious tribunal, therefore it's not good enough for you. You're a broken record HO and a nasty little fascist.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #35 - June 13, 2011, 01:49 PM

Quote
Principle here is somewhat good.
Enforcement of this law is not even suggested as far as I've read.

Parliament doesn't pass new laws unless they want them to be enforced, so enforcement is automatically suggested by the existence of the law.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #36 - June 13, 2011, 01:56 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on June 11, 2011, 09:36 PM
I think these courts should be banned or at the very least be given a licence to run on which gets extended IF they prove to not cause harm. But oh no ... how Islamaphobic!

What about Jewish tribunals do you want them also banned or?

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #37 - June 13, 2011, 05:55 PM

I expect a lot of people here will have got this email , but just in case anyone hasn't ....

Dear Friend,

As you may well be aware, The Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill was introduced to the House of Lords last week which aims to reduce the power and influence of sharia tribunals and courts in Britain; One Law for All and the National Secular Society have spoken out in its support as it signifies an important recognition of the injustices being perpetrated against women in religious tribunals in Britain. It further represents a strong assertion of the value of a single legal system and the protection of the rights and equality of women. To read more about the bill, see here: http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/one-law-for-all-and-the-national-secular-society-back-bill-that-aims-to-curb-sharia-courts-in-britain/.

Debate at House of Commons – 28 June 2011

Since our last letter to you, we have written to every MP and Peer in the Houses of Parliament asking that they attend a discussion on sharia law, and its practice under the power of the Arbitration Act 1996 and sent them a copy of our book ‘Sharia Law in Britain; A Threat to One Law for All and Equal Rights’. Here is a copy of the letter sent jointly with the National Secular Society: http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/One-Law-Letter-2011_Web2.pdf.

To help us make this event as successful as possible, we ask again that you contact your Member of Parliament and urge him/her to attend this important debate. When contacting your MP, please inform him/her that sharia law operates in a way which is not in the public interest as it discriminates against women and children as a matter of course. Examples you can cite include that under sharia, the testimony of a woman is worth only half of a man, and fathers get child custody rights regardless of the circumstances of the case. You may also highlight a growing campaign among sharia advocates to effectively decriminalise domestic violence for Muslims in Britain. Thanks to those of you who have already done so. The discussion will take place in the House of Commons from 6-8pm on Tuesday June 28 and will be chaired by Jim Fitzpatrick MP. The meeting will be open to the public, space permitting; to attend, please RSVP onelawforall@gmail.com.

Once again I want to thank you for your continued support. We have many more plans for the year ahead and will keep you up to date on all that we do to promote equal rights and end discriminatory laws in Britain.

I also want to thank you for your continued donations. We couldn’t have come this far without your support. But we need a lot more. If you can, please donate or join our ‘100 Club’ here: http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/donate/. Every bits helps.

Warmest wishes
Anne Marie Waters
Spokesperson
One Law for All
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #38 - June 13, 2011, 08:50 PM

Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on June 13, 2011, 01:56 PM
What about Jewish tribunals do you want them also banned or?

If there is statistically overwhelming evidence a woman's rights are trumped like under sharia courts - indeed I would consider it.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #39 - June 13, 2011, 09:02 PM

Thanks aife, just wrote to mine using http://www.writetothem.com

Quote
Dear Crispin Blunt,

I would highly recommend for you to join the debate at House of Commons – 28 June 2011 - Sharia debate in Parliament

"Under sharia, the testimony of a woman is worth only half of a man, and fathers get child custody rights regardless of the circumstances of the case."

Yours sincerely,
<insert name>

INFO:

The public are invited to a debate in Parliament jointly organised by the One Law for All Campaign and the National Secular Society. The practice of sharia law will be debated and in particular whether it should be permitted under the powers of the Arbitration Act. Sharia tribunals and councils are in free operation across the United Kingdom – some operate under the power of the Arbitration Act 1996. The debate will be chaired by Jim Fitzpatrick MP.
When: Tuesday 28 June 2011, evening
Where: Houses of Parliament, Westminster

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #40 - June 13, 2011, 09:10 PM

Quote from: billy on June 13, 2011, 11:41 AM
As Cheetah says, it is to be welcomed in its own right, and is a very good step forward. It provides a base camp from which further scrutiny and opposition can be built from.

I welcome it, it shows the excruciatingly amount of tactful politics that will be required going forward with this matter. I welcome the evolution in approach, if it is the only thing going that is palatable in Britain.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #41 - June 17, 2011, 01:12 PM

Crispin Blunt did get back to me.

Quote
"Let me assure you, however, that they [Sharia courts] are not part of the court system in this country and they have no means of enforcing their decisions".

I understand this - and as it currently stands there would need to be no new law to regulate Sharia courts if they didn't enforce their decisions in the first place.

I feel as if one construct [Sharia courts] is requiring to be "mended" by another construct [a law to regulate it]. The root issue is that a set of behind-the-times value system is allowed to be on the same playing field as a more advance set of cultural values. The root misunderstanding and acceptance of this causes problems further down the line as we are seeing with Sharia Courts.

I think that just like designing a building or a plane, when setting up laws if there is an error at an abstract level, it doesn't matter how it is implemented, you'll have eventual issues that will trace back to the root.

If a building is abstractly designed in mind to use the cheapest materials, then once built you'll end up fixing it and mending it constantly. Compare that to one that was designed from the start to stand till the end of time. Just go to Mumbai and check out the rotting 70s buildings compared to all the Victorian building still standing.

My point: high level, architectural, choices are important. Get that right, then everything follows through. Get it wrong - and you'll forever be trying to"mend" things.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #42 - June 17, 2011, 02:14 PM

Quote from: Rev. Winton Dupree on June 13, 2011, 12:58 PM
You're a broken record HO and a nasty little fascist.

As a union man, isn't the freedom to be unreasonable something you'd fight for, Reverend?

Perhaps HO is just sick of all the mealy-mouthed evasions in contemporary Britain, and is over-egging the pudding a little because shit needs saying that isn't being said.
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #43 - June 17, 2011, 02:46 PM

Quote from: David on June 17, 2011, 02:14 PM
As a union man, isn't the freedom to be unreasonable something you'd fight for, Reverend?

Um, not sure what you mean. Please clarify.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #44 - June 17, 2011, 03:07 PM

You're having a go at HO for holding opinions you find unreasonable.

Many might argue that, these days, trades unions exist to be unreasonable (and thus perpetuate their power). But that was a facetious add-on to a serious point.

As an American, I suspect you have no idea quite how stifled proper debate is in Britain.
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #45 - June 17, 2011, 03:09 PM

Quote from: David on June 17, 2011, 02:14 PM

Perhaps HO is just sick of all the mealy-mouthed evasions in contemporary Britain, and is over-egging the pudding a little because shit needs saying that isn't being said.

Accurate diagnosis! The truth is and should be independent of party politics!
If politically parties really bother about the common man then if a Conservative does or says something that benefits him the politician from the Left should graciously acknowledge it and co-operate with him and vice-versa.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #46 - June 17, 2011, 03:19 PM

Quote from: David on June 17, 2011, 03:07 PM
You're having a go at HO for holding opinions you find unreasonable.

Sure I am, but I defend his right to say retarded shit, just like I think the government shouldn't prevent neo-Nazi skinheads from holding marches, even though those are the same folks I like to beat up for fun.

Quote
Many might argue that, these days, trades unions exist to be unreasonable (and thus perpetuate their power).

Yes, reactionaries and total idiots argue such nonsense.

Quote
As an American, I suspect you have no idea quite how stifled proper debate is in Britain.

Again, you're going to have to explain further what you mean by that.

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #47 - June 17, 2011, 04:12 PM

Quote from: Rev. Winton Dupree on June 17, 2011, 03:19 PM
Again, you're going to have to explain further what you mean by that.

It's not easy to explain.

It's as if there's a shadow over our the whole society, with everyone crying "Isn't the sunshine lovely?"
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #48 - June 17, 2011, 04:22 PM

Quote from: David on June 17, 2011, 03:07 PM
You're having a go at HO for holding opinions you find unreasonable.

Isn't that what all do to people who's opinions we find unreasonable?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #49 - June 17, 2011, 04:39 PM

Yes, but we don't call them fascists, let alone nasty little ones.
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #50 - June 17, 2011, 04:51 PM

Quote from: David on June 17, 2011, 04:12 PM
It's as if there's a shadow over our the whole society, with everyone crying "Isn't the sunshine lovely?"

The last 10 years has outlined there really is an issue. This proposed bill is showing the shrewdness required to tackle the subject in the UK. Behind closed doors much is said in higher politics in the UK, even with Labour. Other countries in Europe are taking stances in their respective ways: France, Switzerland, Belgium. Germany and UK are good at making statements, not so good with actual actions. MPs require more poking from their constituents, everyone can help out in this way in Britain. And it's great - imagine trying to get responses from politicians in more corrupt countries - no chance!

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #51 - June 17, 2011, 05:04 PM

Quote from: David on June 17, 2011, 04:39 PM
Yes, but we don't call them fascists, let alone nasty little ones.

Well I don't know how tall he is, so I couldn't comment.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #52 - June 17, 2011, 05:13 PM

Come in, High Octane.
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #53 - June 17, 2011, 05:15 PM

Quote from: David on June 17, 2011, 04:39 PM
Yes, but we don't call them fascists, let alone nasty little ones.

What if they're bloodthirsty authoritarian chickenhawks who's spinelessness and moral bankruptcy make your stomach turn? Not even then?

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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #54 - June 17, 2011, 05:36 PM

I just call them shape-shifting lizards. Saves syllables.
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #55 - June 18, 2011, 03:03 AM
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Re: Bill to regulate sharia courts in the UK
Reply #56 - June 18, 2011, 07:55 AM

Quote from: King Tut on June 09, 2011, 07:14 PM
This bill will not do shit to improve the life's of Muslim women who go to these courts in the first place or are forced to go to these courts. The sharia courts are a symbolic tool of reinforcement of the faith, many women understand that these courts do not have legal powers which abrogate the secular penal code of the country, but despite this still accept the rules based on a symbolic religious bondage. Many of the women will feel that the rules are ordained by a perfect legal system (Islamic Sharia law) and it would be a violation of their religious beliefs if they do not follow the rulings of the court, or on some cases the women will be pressured by family and community members to accept and obey the ruling by the sharia court, if not they will be ostracized from the community, and excommunicated from Islam.

If the government had any sense and credibility in taking action all religious arbitration courts should have been banned!

Hell! I find myself agreeing with every word Tut has written. Well said Tut. Some commentators have said that the bill doesn't have a farts chance in hell because Private Members' bills can be talked out, but that 'It will flag up the problem and lead to future legislation'. It remains to be seen.

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