The problem of evil

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- strangestdude
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The problem of evil
OP - July 27, 2011, 01:15 PM

Here's darkmatter2525's other channel.

In this video he discusses William Lane Craig's refutation of the problem of evil...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P92yGnKXVvg

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #1 - July 28, 2011, 01:17 PM

DM is jacked, lol.

One defense I've heard a theist present is postulating that omnipotence refers to the ability to do everything that is logically possible, as opposed to everything (ie creating a square triangle). He then went on to suggest that current state of affairs ultimately results in most good, as counter-intuitive as it is from our perspective, and that's why God chose it.

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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #2 - July 28, 2011, 05:41 PM

So basically they are taking it on faith that there is a 'greater good' for the suffering of innocent people?

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #3 - July 28, 2011, 06:30 PM

Well, kinda.
Their holy book says God is all-merciful, so they assume that this universe must result in greatest possible good. If you object and say "why, God could have made the universe much better by getting rid of disease, poverty, and suffering in general" a theist can say that those things are all necessary for achieving the greatest "amount of good".

This is (I think) the strongest formulation of the Problem of Evil, by William Rowe:

P1: There exist instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
P2: An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
C: (Therefore) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.

A theist can reject the first premise on the ground that "omnipotence" means ability to do all that can be done.

Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #4 - July 30, 2011, 08:00 PM

Quote from: Stuff on July 28, 2011, 06:30 PM
Their holy book says God is all-merciful, so they assume that this universe must result in greatest possible good.

Hmm, that's a challenging one.

The only way I could personally approach that is by using a similar argument to Darkmatter in the vid I posted.

If you look at the overall purpose of human existence as presented in Islamic and Christian theology it's basically this;

1) An omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent diety chose to create the universe.

2a)The deity created man with free will, but wanted man to exercise that free will spending life worshipping him.

2b) The Deity created heaven and hell for man.

3) On earth every human being suffers psychologically and physically throughout their lives, regardless of their age or moral character.

4) On judgement day the omnibenevolent deity will chose to forgive some human beings for the wrong choices they made, and send them to heaven where they will be in bliss for eternity.

5) On judgement day God will chose to not forgive large numbers of human beings, and then will torture them for eternity.

How is that congruent with omnibenevolence, seeing as the the deity - also possessing omniscience - brought them into existence out of choice? (The choice to create human beings negates the limitations of omnipotence argument)

Why would an ominibenevolent deity chose not to forgive some human beings - as presented in Islamic and Christian theology - regarding judgement day?

Put more concisely; How can anyone rationally believe that a deity possessing omniscience and omnibenevolence would willing inflict eternal suffering on human beings, when he could have chosen not to?

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #5 - July 31, 2011, 09:03 AM

Nice way of looking at the Holocaust and other related atrocities…

I abandoned Islam because I had to stand by my beliefs, such as my inability to believe in a deity as represented by human religions throughout the ages. If you start with the premiss that god does not exist, then occurrences such as ‘evil’ suddenly make surprising sense.

This way you can differentiate between what one person or people do to others (murder, rape, war), natural disasters (earthquakes, floods — indisputably bad, but not ‘evil’), and unfortunate circumstances one cannot help (animals eating your family, etc).
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #6 - July 31, 2011, 05:12 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on July 30, 2011, 08:00 PM
Put more concisely; How can anyone rationally believe that a deity possessing omniscience and omnibenevolence would willing inflict eternal suffering on human beings, when he could have chosen not to?

A theist can argue that choosing not to would not result in this mysterious "greatest good" that God is working toward.
To you and me this may seem too untenable of an excuse to take the concept of their god seriously, as eternal suffering of countless people is too great a price to pay for anything we can imagine. To many a theist it will seem good enough, though, as they can't even entertain the idea that god is fiction.

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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #7 - August 01, 2011, 04:14 PM

I agree with Stuff here. What theists ask is "How do you know what's right and wrong? It's all upto god" even if we highlight how many kids die of cancer, etc. They simply say "It's a test for us" - we might find it sick, but that's them clinging on to their beliefs in desperation. You can rarely convince them otherwise.

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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #8 - August 01, 2011, 04:37 PM

Here's another formulation, for reference:

Assumption (1): God exists.
   Assumption (1a): God is all-knowing.
   Assumption (1b): God is all-powerful.
   Assumption (1c): God is perfectly loving.
   Assumption (1d): Any being that did not possess all three of the above properties would not be God.
Premise (2): Evil exists.
Premise (3): An all-knowing being would be aware of the existence of evil.
Premise (4): An all-powerful being would be able to eliminate evil.
Premise (5): A perfectly loving being would desire to eliminate evil.
Conclusion (6): Evil does not exist. (from (1),(3),(4),(5))
Contradiction: But evil does exist. (from (2))
Conclusion (7): There is no being that is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly loving. (from (2),(3),(4),(5))
Conclusion (8 ): God does not exist. (from (7),(1d))

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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #9 - August 01, 2011, 04:48 PM

Quote from: Stuff on July 31, 2011, 05:12 PM
A theist can argue that choosing not to would not result in this mysterious "greatest good" that God is working toward.

That's true. But hopefully they will at least see that their God chose to bring beings into creation to suffer for eternity. And the 'greater good' is at the sacrifice of millions, if not billions of fellow human beings (like darkmatter pointed out).

Hopefully they will at least understand why people can't accept the belief that the deity of their religion is omnibenevolent. If they understand then their belief has been undermined somewhat IMO. What do you think?

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #10 - August 01, 2011, 05:01 PM

Quote from: Stuff on July 28, 2011, 01:17 PM
DM is jacked, lol.

One defense I've heard a theist present is postulating that omnipotence refers to the ability to do everything that is logically possible, as opposed to everything (ie creating a square triangle). He then went on to suggest that current state of affairs ultimately results in most good, as counter-intuitive as it is from our perspective, and that's why God chose it.

If god only does what is logical, then why did he do something which is completely illogical such as testing humans to see if they gain enough points to get into heaven? when he already knows the outcome of every-single action taken or not?

Moreover if God is bound by logic, then he is not omnipotent.

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- olweasel
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #11 - August 01, 2011, 05:11 PM

Quote from: Ishina on August 01, 2011, 04:37 PM
Assumption (1d): Any being that did not possess all three of the above properties would not be God.
Premise (2): Evil exists.
Premise (3): An all-knowing being would be aware of the existence of evil.
Premise (4): An all-powerful being would be able to eliminate evil.
Premise (5): A perfectly loving being would desire to eliminate evil.
Conclusion (6): Evil does not exist. (from (1),(3),(4),(5))

That proof would be rebutted with "It's a test", as is customary.

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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #12 - August 01, 2011, 05:18 PM

An all-knowing God wouldn't need to test us.

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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #13 - August 01, 2011, 05:20 PM

In any case, it being a test wouldn't resolve the paradox. God would still be omnibenevolent and omnipotent.
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #14 - August 01, 2011, 05:31 PM

Quote
That's true. But hopefully they will at least see that their God chose to bring beings into creation to suffer for eternity. And the 'greater good' is at the sacrifice of millions, if not billions of fellow human beings (like darkmatter pointed out).

Hopefully. Unfortunately, many are unwilling to question the justice of god, even knowing that he will burn billions for eternity. Here is my impression of indoctrinated theistic reasoning:

My holy book is from God.
My holy book says God is just.
God is the ultimate arbiter of justice.
If God decides to burn billions of infidels, it must be the just thing to do. I may feel it's a bit of an overkill, but what do I know of justice? I'm just an imperfect human, in need of God's guidance!

Sometimes, for a sport, I'd ask them how they arrived at the conclusion that God is just. When they point to passages in their book, I ask them why the author couldn't be a malevolent demon who lied his head off in that book, to deceive as many people as possible. I usually get called names at that point.

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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #15 - August 01, 2011, 05:41 PM

Quote from: King Tut on August 01, 2011, 05:01 PM
If god only does what is logical, then why did he do something which is completely illogical such as testing humans to see if they gain enough points to get into heaven? when he already knows the outcome of every-single action taken or not?

Not necessarily what's logical, but what's possible.

Quote
Moreover if God is bound by logic, then he is not omnipotent.

As far as I know, it is not a common theological position that omnipotence implies that anything can be achieved. And if you insist that omnipotence means ability to do anything whatsoever, including logically impossible things, a theist can grant all your premises and still insist that God exists.

Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #16 - August 02, 2011, 09:08 PM

If god can only do what is possible, then can he do the impossible? If god is not able to do the impossible, then his is not Omnipotent, he is Impotent. To limit the definition of Omnipotence to which that does not lead to a paradox is essentially a modern semantic construct, and intellectual dishonesty since I don't know of many monotheistic theists who deny concepts like fucking talking animals, and fairytales.

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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #17 - August 02, 2011, 10:03 PM

Quote
If god can only do what is possible, then can he do the impossible? If god is not able to do the impossible, then his is not Omnipotent, he is Impotent. To limit the definition of Omnipotence to which that does not lead to a paradox is essentially a modern semantic construct, and intellectual dishonesty since I don't know of many monotheistic theists who deny concepts like fucking talking animals, and fairytales.

By definition, impossible can't be done.
Anyway, creating some magical talking animals is quite different from preventing all evil or, say, creating an even more powerful God!
Can God create a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it? Most serious theists I've talked to would say no.

But suppose a theist accepts your definition of omnipotence. Suppose you agree that God can do anything, including the impossible. Do you think you've cornered him at this point, with the problem of evil? I think all further reasonable discourse would then be futile, as you'd have agreed that God doesn't give two shits about what's possible or impossible, or abide by any rules we can infer (like laws of non-contradiction or identity).

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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #18 - August 02, 2011, 10:29 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 02, 2011, 10:03 PM
Suppose you agree that God can do anything, including the impossible. Do you think you've cornered him at this point, with the problem of evil? I think all further reasonable discourse would then be futile, as you'd have agreed that God doesn't give two shits about what's possible or impossible, or abide by any rules we can infer (like laws of non-contradiction or identity).

Simply establishing God's ability does nothing to address the moral implications of using his ability. Or not using his ability, in this case. The problem of evil still stands.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: The problem of evil
Reply #19 - August 03, 2011, 09:04 PM

Quote from: Stuff on August 02, 2011, 10:03 PM
By definition, impossible can't be done.
Anyway, creating some magical talking animals is quite different from preventing all evil or, say, creating an even more powerful God!
Can God create a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it? Most serious theists I've talked to would say no.

But suppose a theist accepts your definition of omnipotence. Suppose you agree that God can do anything, including the impossible. Do you think you've cornered him at this point, with the problem of evil? I think all further reasonable discourse would then be futile, as you'd have agreed that God doesn't give two shits about what's possible or impossible, or abide by any rules we can infer (like laws of non-contradiction or identity).

Why worship such a God then who isn't going to stop evil is the point here. For example, let's assume evil is a byproduct of human free will, how does one explain unnecessary evil? such as a child dying from Chronic functional abdominal pain? or a rain-dear dying in a forest fire? If such a god is not going to stop such unnecessary evil/pain/suffering then he is not merciful.

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