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 Topic: Please Muslims prove me wrong..

 (Read 5822 times)
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  • Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     OP - August 07, 2009, 11:42 AM

    I think reading more about islam , and discovering weird hadeeths (saying of Prophet) was what started all the doubting.

    I always thought that islam was a religion of peace, preaches equality between man and woman, respects woman and was the only religion to put her in her real status.. i never thought much about reading tafseer (explaination ) of quran by  ibn katheer or any other,
    my answer to why am muslim , was simply because i have faith and faith cannot be explained and i felt am in no need to give reasons, i trusted muhammed to be the last prophet as he said.

    where i live , we dont crtitcize islam , we just pass on lovely duaas and sayings of prophet. quotes about heaven and others to warn us of hell. i never gave much thought about non muslims and whats going to happen to them..

    untill i met many non muslims online , and to me they looked as normal as anyone! ..
    they were nice ppl , with families and lives , just like me and like any muslim. so why would they go to hell?
    i began to struggle with this idea, so to comfort myself i thought , well no one knows what happens when we die, only God knows. and am sure he is merciful , and who knows his creature better than their creator!
    but sure those didnot last , cause by furthur reading , i found out that , i MUST as a muslim believe that All kaffers are going to hell and if i didnot beleive so , then am consdidered one :-/
    Well, why would God care so much about what i think? cannot i think it at least secretly lol , i guess not , cause he is all knowing
    and knows whats in  my heart ..

    reading ibn katheer tafseer for this verse: 4:34

    [["34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are Qanitat, and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard. As to those women on whose part you see ill conduct, admonish them, and abandon them in their beds, and beat them, but if they return to obedience, do not seek a means against them. Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.) Allah said

    (because Allah has made one of them to excel the other,) meaning, because men excel over women and are better than them for certain tasks. This is why prophethood was exclusive of men, as well as other important positions of leadership. The Prophet said,
    People who appoint a woman to be their leader, will never achieve success.) Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith. Such is the case with appointing women as judges or on other positions of leadership.
    (Men are the protectors and maintainers of women,) meaning, the man is responsible for the woman, and he is her maintainer, caretaker and leader who disciplines her if she deviates.]]
     
    i was shocked , i couldnot believe why would God create me less . and why he thinks am deficient.. and if he thinks i am
    couldnot he have fixed this deficiency rather than teasing us about it in holy books, giving men a privilege over us??
    so, to put my mind at ease , lol, i thought well maybe ibn katheer wasnot so right, maybe he added what others said , and sure
    that wasnot what God meant..
     
    but ofcourse fundamentalists wont agree , and they will go far as calling me a kaffer or arrogant following my own desire..
    this is another thing i dont get , why cannot we follow our own desires? if our desires are that bad , then why do we have them,then punished for following them..?
    Verse 43:18

    (A creature who is brought up in adornments, and who in dispute cannot make itself clear) means, women are regarded as lacking something, which they make up for with jewelry and adornments from the time of childhood onwards, and when there is a dispute, they cannot speak up and defend themselves clearly, so how can this be attributed to Allah..

    Then in another forum, it said well thats expressing what kuffar thought of women at that time, so it doesnot mean Allah thought that of women..
    maybe..

    Muslims would say about Iblis : "The Jinn who disobeyed Allah Ta'ala and was expelled from His mercy. It was Iblis who tempted Adam and his wife Hawwa (Eve), peace be on them, to approach the forbidden tree. He is also known as Shaitan (Satan)"
    Why was Adam tested in heaven?? and how did shytan get back into heaven after he was cursed out of it,?? was Adam Fooled ?
    i thought Earth was the place of test , not heaven.. and If god knew shytaan was going to tempt adam , then why let him in ?

    Un justified hate..
    verse 98:6 "Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creature"
    verse 8:55 "Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe "
    verse 8:22 "Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason.  "
    Hate of desbelievers ,, and apparently of Geckos!!
    Why is that SO Important to be mentioned in a saheh hadeeth?
    why did God create Geckos if he hated them so much?and why arenot roaches mentioned ? most ppl hate them!
    Why call his own creation , worst creatures??

    Being double faced..
    In mecca when islam first spread , it was peaceful and loving , preaching morals , to attract ppl , once they became a power in  medena all that changed, and even new verses cancalled old ones wtf ?

    so if these old verses are cancalled , why do we still have them in quran to read and memorize?
    and doesnot that mean , we can change islam to suit our conditions today ? sure fundamentalists would disagree..
    verse 3:28
    (unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'' Allah said....

    Muslims would give zayed, a great importance saying his name is mentioned in Quran , "SEE how he was honored!, u take rewards just by saying his name..
    well, iblis is mentioned in quran , do i take rewards in mentioning his name?""
    btw zayed was muhamad adopted son, he later married his divorce ..

    And this whole crap about we are being tested , pisses me off.. i didnot choose this life. No one asked me to accept the Amana as
    it says in quran.. and God himself says that Ensan is kafoor and jahil , so there! he knows us well then , why should i prove him
    wrong now. i should just act like God expects me to be , kafoor and jahil.
    verse 33:72
    "Indeed, we offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, and they declined to bear it and feared it; but man [undertook to] bear it. Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant.""

    verse 17:67
    "And when adversity touches you at sea, lost are [all] those you invoke except for Him. But when He delivers you to the land, you turn away [from Him]. And ever is man ungrateful.""

    I cannot understand why muhammad ordered the killing of ppl who attacked him with poetry?
    or the torture of a jew to give away where he kept his treasure , and later on marrying his wife , who he just killed her dad and husband.this can be found in authentic arabic books..


    Ali and Khumus..
    Bukhari "The Prophet sent 'Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and 'Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?" When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus."
     so Ali couldnot wait ?? i couldnot help but thinking how afraid was that slave girl , war and killing,
    then a total stranger rapes her!?
    and dont tell me this was the way wars went on these days!,, arenot we supposed to be different?? didnot islam
    come to change hell lotta things ? why didnot it change that??

    i see some muslims responding in here to other articles, maybe they can answer me, maybe not. anyway had to let it out! what better place than the Internet to do so?!

    bye 4 now Cheesy


    أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #1 - August 07, 2009, 12:13 PM

    And this whole crap about we are being tested , pisses me off.. i didnot choose this life. No one asked me to accept the Amana as
    it says in quran.. and God himself says that Ensan is kafoor and jahil , so there! he knows us well then...


    Amazing post  Afro and I recognise those same thoughts and questions. (The bit I quoted above literally made me laugh out loud.)

    A Muslim recently made a comment (on the video: In the name of the Merciful The Compassionate) about this idea of a "test", saying:

    ...He knows you would spend your time forver on earth in rebeliousness. This is easy for God to know but to you it isn't, so God created trails or tests or hardship in life for you to discover what's truly in your heart...

    And this is all for what reason?

    So God can say "I told you so!"?

    Maybe the Angels will pat God on the back and say: "Yes, God you were right when you created beings that would disobey your garbled messages - well done."

    And will God feel a sense of immense self-satisfaction as he roasts their skins, saying: "I'm so glad I conducted this little test that I knew the outcome of. I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that when I say I know everything and am all powerful - I wasn't lying! Happy days!"
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #2 - August 07, 2009, 03:18 PM

    Their good questions, ones that I cannot answer.  They are the kind of questions that I never found a satisfactory response too, making me realise that Islam was not for me.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #3 - August 15, 2009, 12:58 AM

    I think reading more about islam , and discovering weird hadeeths (saying of Prophet) was what started all the doubting.

     It is the nature of the soul to gather doubts around itself. If it happens to attract doubts more, then more doubts will be gathered. Doubts are likened to clouds. If there is one cloud, it will attract others and, if many clouds are gathered, still more will be attracted to join them.

    Quote
    I always thought that islam was a religion of peace, preaches equality between man and woman, respects woman and was the only religion to put her in her real status.. i never thought much about reading tafseer (explaination ) of quran by  ibn katheer or any other,
    my answer to why am muslim , was simply because i have faith and faith cannot be explained and i felt am in no need to give reasons, i trusted muhammed to be the last prophet as he said.

    where i live , we dont crtitcize islam , we just pass on lovely duaas and sayings of prophet. quotes about heaven and others to warn us of hell. i never gave much thought about non muslims and whats going to happen to them..

    untill i met many non muslims online , and to me they looked as normal as anyone! ..
    they were nice ppl , with families and lives , just like me and like any muslim. so why would they go to hell?

    There is no Heaven n Hell after death. If you believe it, how do you know that. You haven't go there yet or die?

    Quote
    i began to struggle with this idea, so to comfort myself i thought , well no one knows what happens when we die,

    Our bodies become worm food. All souls return to God. In the Quran, "To Allah we belong, and to Him is our return"


    Quote
    only God knows. and am sure he is merciful , and who knows his creature better than their creator!
    but sure those didnot last , cause by furthur reading , i found out that , i MUST as a muslim believe that All kaffers are going to hell and if i didnot beleive so , then am consdidered one :-/
    Well, why would God care so much about what i think? cannot i think it at least secretly lol , i guess not , cause he is all knowing
    and knows whats in  my heart ..

    In the Quran,...?And know that Allah knoweth what is in your hearts, and take heed of Him; and know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing?

    Quote
    reading ibn katheer tafseer for this verse: 4:34

    [["34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are Qanitat, and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard. As to those women on whose part you see ill conduct, admonish them, and abandon them in their beds, and beat them, but if they return to obedience, do not seek a means against them. Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.) Allah said

    (because Allah has made one of them to excel the other,) meaning, because men excel over women and are better than them for certain tasks. This is why prophethood was exclusive of men, as well as other important positions of leadership. The Prophet said,
    People who appoint a woman to be their leader, will never achieve success.) Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith. Such is the case with appointing women as judges or on other positions of leadership.
    (Men are the protectors and maintainers of women,) meaning, the man is responsible for the woman, and he is her maintainer, caretaker and leader who disciplines her if she deviates.]

    Why every woman in Islam retains her own name after marriage?  Why she stands as a responsible individual both in the home and outside it? Prophet Muhammad always upheld the ideal of womanhood, making his followers swear in their oath of allegiance to him to speak no evil of woman, and asking women themselves to show dignity by their clothing and manner.
     
    Quote
    i was shocked , i couldnot believe why would God create me less . and why he thinks am deficient.. and if he thinks i am
    couldnot he have fixed this deficiency rather than teasing us about it in holy books, giving men a privilege over us??
    so, to put my mind at ease , lol, i thought well maybe ibn katheer wasnot so right, maybe he added what others said , and sure
    that wasnot what God meant..

    Generally the nature of women is to be more respectful towards human beings. If it were not for the love of the mother the world would not go on. It is in the quality of devotion which exists in women that the secret of the whole creation resides.
     
    Quote
    but ofcourse fundamentalists wont agree , and they will go far as calling me a kaffer or arrogant following my own desire..
    this is another thing i dont get , why cannot we follow our own desires? if our desires are that bad , then why do we have them,then punished for following them..?

    What if the desires you have are not worthwhile?
    Quote
    Verse 43:18

    (A creature who is brought up in adornments, and who in dispute cannot make itself clear) means, women are regarded as lacking something, which they make up for with jewelry and adornments from the time of childhood onwards, and when there is a dispute, they cannot speak up and defend themselves clearly, so how can this be attributed to Allah..

    Then in another forum, it said well thats expressing what kuffar thought of women at that time, so it doesnot mean Allah thought that of women..
    maybe..

    Who told you that men (Allah) robs a large number of women of their natural rights, without leaving them any choice in the matter? For your info... women are the main upholders of religion.

    Quote
    Muslims would say about Iblis : "The Jinn who disobeyed Allah Ta'ala and was expelled from His mercy. It was Iblis who tempted Adam and his wife Hawwa (Eve), peace be on them, to approach the forbidden tree. He is also known as Shaitan (Satan)"
    Why was Adam tested in heaven?? and how did shytan get back into heaven after he was cursed out of it,?? was Adam Fooled ?
    i thought Earth was the place of test , not heaven.. and If god knew shytaan was going to tempt adam , then why let him in ?

    Adam was tested in the Paradise (Garden) not Heaven. In the Quran, Azazil is referred to as Iblis or Satan or Jinn. For your info without Iblis (Azazil) we are not here. Iblis also reveal the Secret of Heaven.


     pccoffee bedtime2

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #4 - August 15, 2009, 01:04 AM

    Quote
    Why every woman in Islam retains her own name after marriage?



    If I may ask here,

    So What?


    Also;

    I think women in the non-Islamic states (West) have the right to retain that..!

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #5 - August 15, 2009, 10:03 AM


    If I may ask here,

    So What?


    Also;

    I think women in the non-Islamic states (West) have the right to retain that..!


    Yes, I notice that is always brought up as if it was a point scored for women's liberation in Islam - when I'm quite sure it is nothing to do with the independence or freedom of the woman but all about the tribal mentality of the Arabs who even once they were married their bond to their tribe was stronger than their bond to each other!
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #6 - August 15, 2009, 10:13 AM

    Thanks S.A.M for taking time to reply me , but am surprised that u didnot quote from Quran or hadeeth, or any reliable scholar, U mentioned something about rasool Allah saying women are so and so , but u didnot give isnad for the hadeeth .. I think quran and sunnah should be our main reference as muslims, and not to interpret quran as we like.

    Thanks again
    Smiley

    أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #7 - September 13, 2009, 01:11 AM

    Hey there I'm a Muslim. I know you will have questions amongst these hadiths but there is a site that has comprehensively dealt with the issue of sex with slave women. Its called islamic-answersdotcom
    It might give you at least a better historical insight into the relevant situation and explain things a bit better.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #8 - September 13, 2009, 10:02 AM

    Why every woman in Islam retains her own name after marriage?  Why she stands as a responsible individual both in the home and outside it?

    My wife retained her surname after we got married. So did my mum after she got married to my dad. Quite a common practice actually, a non issue. And they definitely both stand as responsible individuals both in the home and outside it. They are not Muslims in case you are wondering.
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #9 - September 13, 2009, 10:28 AM

    Hey there I'm a Muslim. I know you will have questions amongst these hadiths but there is a site that has comprehensively dealt with the issue of sex with slave women. Its called islamic-answersdotcom
    It might give you at least a better historical insight into the relevant situation and explain things a bit better.


    The most hilarious thing that I read about sex with slaves (Malikat Yameenokom) was from a website few days ago. The author who was an Imam answering a question about the subject said: ...."Nowadays, Muslim countries are so week they can not attack other countries to get slaves and have sex with them, so this issue is not possible anymore!"....

    And I was like, what??! You bastard want to invade Italy or Sweden and kidnap some nice ladies from there? Any way I was like LOLing and ROFLing all the way to bed! Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #10 - September 13, 2009, 10:31 AM

    The most hilarious thing that I read about sex with slaves (Malikat Yameenokom) was from a website few days ago. The author who was an Imam answering a question about the subject said: ...."Nowadays, Muslim countries are so week they can not attack other countries to get slaves and have sex with them, so this issue is not possible anymore!"....

    And I was like, what??! You bastard want to invade Italy or Sweden and kidnap some nice ladies from there? Any way I was like LOLing and ROFLing all the way to bed! Cheesy


    The Most hilarious thing was to hear Al sha3rawy saying that men had sex with their slave girls cause they are women too and they have ^^Needs^^ !!  finmad

    أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #11 - September 13, 2009, 10:54 AM

    I think some of these Imam types which swedish and Italian movies thinking, yes one day we shall invade and shag our way through all those pretty busty babes .....Muhahahahah

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #12 - September 13, 2009, 10:54 AM

    The Most hilarious thing was to hear Al sha3rawy saying that men had sex with their slave girls cause they are women too and they have ^^Needs^^ !!  finmad

     Cheesy thats brilliant - part of the blame for Islam has to be attributed to the thick Mullahs. If you look at the Jewish priests & scholars many of them have PhDs, these mullahs are happy with just daal & roti..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #13 - September 13, 2009, 10:55 AM

    It really really really winds me up when people say "slave girls were treated like wives". Bullshit. If they were going to treat them like wives, why did they not just marry them instead of keeping them as slaves.

    AbuMubarak on Ummah.com said that slaves were like Maids or Butlers today. When I pointed out that you don't actually own your maids or butlers and maids and butlers can't be bought and sold, he took that back and said "slaves were actually like pro baseball players". I don't really think he understands how player contracts work in sports and thinks that the clubs actually own the players.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #14 - September 13, 2009, 10:58 AM

    Cheesy thats brilliant - part of the blame for Islam has to be attributed to the thick Mullahs. If you look at the Jewish priests & scholars many of them have PhDs, these mullahs are happy with just daal & roti..


    Some Muslim scholars also have those qualifications as well. Hamza Yusuf, Abdal Hakim Murad, Nuh Keller and many others. I used to think that being intelligent worked in the religions favour, but then one only needs to look at other religions and the scholars of their religions who equally have similar qualifications for an objective outlook.
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #15 - September 13, 2009, 03:55 PM

    The most hilarious thing that I read about sex with slaves (Malikat Yameenokom) was from a website few days ago. The author who was an Imam answering a question about the subject said: ...."Nowadays, Muslim countries are so week they can not attack other countries to get slaves and have sex with them, so this issue is not possible anymore!"....

    And I was like, what??! You bastard want to invade Italy or Sweden and kidnap some nice ladies from there? Any way I was like LOLing and ROFLing all the way to bed! Cheesy

    Lol damn I dno what to say to that, but that website I provided does not give any answers like but ye if you are curious then take a look at least. I think personally the site does offer some good information at least if you are an ex-muslim although judging from the comments here I doubt it will change your mind.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #16 - September 13, 2009, 04:02 PM

    Lol damn I dno what to say to that, but that website I provided does not give any answers like but ye if you are curious then take a look at least. I think personally the site does offer some good information at least if you are an ex-muslim although judging from the comments here I doubt it will change your mind.


    I can only speak for myself but I have been through the mill for over twenty years. At some point you have to realise just how much apologetic and contortion can one do for a religion that is claiming to be the last and final revealed religion and a book that is "mubeen". The apologetics and not just exclusive to Islam, all religions do the same squaring of the circle.
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #17 - August 03, 2011, 09:12 PM

    We can rape and kill jews, chrisitans and other non muslims.....but if non muslims do the same we cry and say its dajjal's time....lolsssss.......

    Hey guys, can you provide me the references from where we can prove that Muslims raped and killed non muslims after war ... and the wars were not so called "war in defence" Huh?

    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #18 - August 24, 2011, 09:11 AM

    And will God feel a sense of immense self-satisfaction as he roasts their skins, saying: "I'm so glad I conducted this little test that I knew the outcome of. I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that when I say I know everything and am all powerful - I wasn't lying! Happy days!"


     Cheesy

     Afro

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Re: Please Muslims prove me wrong..
     Reply #19 - August 25, 2011, 12:22 AM

    And will God feel a sense of immense self-satisfaction as he roasts their skins, saying: "I'm so glad I conducted this little test that I knew the outcome of. I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that when I say I know everything and am all powerful - I wasn't lying! Happy days!"


    “Yes… Good… I’m glad I did all that. They all know now, don’t they? Hm ey? Hm! Ey? HM! EY?!”  Cheesy
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