The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.

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Topic: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.

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The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
OP - August 26, 2011, 02:34 PM

So I've come across this argument a couple of times pitting the Qu'ran against the Torah and Bible to prove it's validity. I'm wondering if this is anything to be proud of? I mean life and society has been changing and evolving for years and years and usually for the better, so shouldn't religious practices. I think Islam would have less scrutiny if it faced some of the ill-practices done in the past and not preach them in modern times.

And there's the question if it really is unchanged at all? Thoughts? What do say you to someone who has ever argued this to you?

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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #1 - August 26, 2011, 02:53 PM

A long essay from 1999 in the Atlantic magazine, worth reading and bookmarking.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/4024/

Quote
What Is the Koran?

Researchers with a variety of academic and theological interests are proposing controversial theories about the Koran and Islamic history, and are striving to reinterpret Islam for the modern world. This is, as one scholar puts it, a "sensitive business"

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #2 - August 26, 2011, 03:39 PM

I skip the whole debate of whether it's been changed or not, and what that implies, and just throw a Kitab-i-Aqdas at the person I'm talking to.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #3 - August 26, 2011, 04:10 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 26, 2011, 03:39 PM
I skip the whole debate of whether it's been changed or not, and what that implies, and just throw a Kitab-i-Aqdas at the person I'm talking to.

what the hell is Kitab-i-Aqdas?
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #4 - August 26, 2011, 04:47 PM

It's the Baha'is' holy book.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #5 - August 26, 2011, 04:51 PM

Sounds tasty

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #6 - August 26, 2011, 04:53 PM

It sounds really eloquent in Arabic too. Gibran Khalil Gibran even said that "there was no Arabic that even touched the Arabic of Bahá'u'lláh". Which is quite an achievement for a Persian non-native speaker of Arabic

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #7 - August 26, 2011, 05:09 PM

So is the Bahai'i holy book has better text than the quran? If so, I'm so gonna use it the next time someone comes up to me and uses this challenge.
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #8 - August 26, 2011, 05:13 PM

The thing is, that criterion is very subjective. That's why you can't prove them wrong, and they can't convince you of their position.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #9 - August 26, 2011, 05:13 PM

Aha, that's news to me, thankee harakat

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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #10 - August 26, 2011, 05:14 PM

Pas de quoi!

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #11 - August 26, 2011, 05:51 PM

Quote from: truth_seeker on August 26, 2011, 05:09 PM
So is the Bahai'i holy book has better text than the quran? If so, I'm so gonna use it the next time someone comes up to me and uses this challenge.

But to the believing Muslim, its not a challenge, because everything ends with the death of Mo. Nothing comes afterwards. It is not even relevant. Bahaism is not even a religion. It is not even accorded the thought of in any way challenging the Year Zero that Islam represents.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #12 - August 26, 2011, 05:56 PM

But it challenges the argument that well-preserved scriptures = divine scriptures.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #13 - August 26, 2011, 05:57 PM

Also, that the Quran is the apex of eloquence, which according to Khalil Gibran it is not.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #14 - August 26, 2011, 06:03 PM

Oh interesting new info Billy

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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #15 - August 27, 2011, 02:15 AM

@Sakura
Your answers are in AlQuraan Alkareem. Seriously, I'm not sure you understand why muslims think that the alleged immutability of the koran is such a plus. Simple explanation: torah was from G-d. The Koran is also from G-d. People need guidance from G-d aka creator of the universe. Unchanged word of G-d is better guidance than the one where jews changed the words. Anything not mentioned in the koran/what came after it is not from G-d, so it matters not whether it's unchanged or not. The logic is perfect. Just like the creator of the universe.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #16 - August 27, 2011, 02:27 AM

Quote from: Sakura02 on August 26, 2011, 02:34 PM
So I've come across this argument a couple of times pitting the Qu'ran against the Torah and Bible to prove it's validity. I'm wondering if this is anything to be proud of? I mean life and society has been changing and evolving for years and years and usually for the better, so shouldn't religious practices. I think Islam would have less scrutiny if it faced some of the ill-practices done in the past and not preach them in modern times.

And there's the question if it really is unchanged at all? Thoughts? What do say you to someone who has ever argued this to you?

don't you get it? This is one of God's miracles in the Quran, it works for all people, past present and future. There's nothing to change!

I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
Can't it be, can't it be mine

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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #17 - August 27, 2011, 02:34 AM

Ameen

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #18 - August 27, 2011, 11:32 AM

Quote from: harakaat on August 26, 2011, 05:56 PM
But it challenges the argument that well-preserved scriptures = divine scriptures.

To every normal person it does. To a believing Muslim, its of a piece with his worldview, and so it does not qualify as 'legitimate' in any way, because Islam says it can't be so.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: The Qu'ran is unchanged unlike other holy books therefore it is true.
Reply #19 - August 27, 2011, 11:34 AM

Quote from: harakaat on August 26, 2011, 05:57 PM
Also, that the Quran is the apex of eloquence, which according to Khalil Gibran it is not.

That one shows the desperation of Muslims actually, I think. When all else fails, say no human could have composed such a perfect thingy, because its so perfectly perfect and poetically perfect and the language is so amazing and the grammar is so magical, only god could have composed it, no man would ever be capable of such linguistic amazingness and miracles.

Its the sound of desperation.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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