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Theme Changer

 Topic: muslim minority countries/cities

 (Read 4889 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #30 - October 05, 2011, 08:48 AM

    ohh guess its a lot less than most countries then..

    actually finland would be a really good choice then, they have a right wing goverment (I think whistling2) who hates muslims  Tongue


    Well the current government is headed by the National Coalition party (conservative) but even though they came on top of the last elections they definitely didn't have a majority, so they had to form a government with the Social Democrats, the Green League AND the Left Alliance.

    You might be thinking of the True Finns (far right, populist party) who did gain a lot of votes in the last elections (they finished third) but they're in the opposition and they do seem to be losing some of their support.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #31 - October 05, 2011, 09:02 AM

    do you really think a right-wing party is the solution to muslim bigotry? that's just fucking stupid, rightists are probably going to lump you in with the muslims and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #32 - October 05, 2011, 09:31 AM

    Yup, right-wingers aren't exactly known for making a big distinction between Muslims and those with brown skin and Arabic names, etc. That's why the Sikh organizations in this country (the US), normally end up allied with the Muslim and Arab advocacy groups-- they don't have any love lost for the Muslims, but they're brown and wear turbans and know that most right-wingers in this country are too stone-cold dumb, racist and heartless to distinguish them from Muslims. They're probably also smart enough to see that in combination with the Minuteman anti-Hispanic immigrant movement, the Muslim-bashing in this country threatens to just get them engulfed and washed away by a much larger wave of xenophobia against immigrants.

    fuck you
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #33 - October 05, 2011, 09:34 AM

    A far right party unfortunately IS a solution to Muslim bigotry, but they'd just replace Muslim bigotry with their own bigotry.

    Either way we're fucked.

    This is why the Left needs to wake the fuck up.  The Left loves to criticise religion when it's Christianity, but Islam is something we need to "celebrate" because it's oh-so "diverse".

    .
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #34 - October 05, 2011, 09:40 AM

    do you really think a right-wing party is the solution to muslim bigotry? that's just fucking stupid, rightists are probably going to lump you in with the muslims and throw the baby out with the bathwater.


    Excuse me? When did I say that? I was merely pointing out at the fact that Finland's government wasn't "a right wing government" because most of the left parties participate in it. I never claimed anything of what you posted.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #35 - October 05, 2011, 09:42 AM

    was not directed at you.
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #36 - October 05, 2011, 09:48 AM

    A far right party unfortunately IS a solution to Muslim bigotry, but they'd just replace Muslim bigotry with their own bigotry.

    Either way we're fucked.

    This is why the Left needs to wake the fuck up.  The Left loves to criticise religion when it's Christianity, but Islam is something we need to "celebrate" because it's oh-so "diverse".


    "The Left" is not monolithic. Maryam Namazie is a communist after all. But yeah, I get your point.

    Excuse me? When did I say that? I was merely pointing out at the fact that Finland's government wasn't "a right wing government" because most of the left parties participate in it. I never claimed anything of what you posted.


    He was replying to Lara91

    fuck you
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #37 - October 05, 2011, 04:35 PM

    A far right party unfortunately IS a solution to Muslim bigotry, but they'd just replace Muslim bigotry with their own bigotry.

    Either way we're fucked.

    This is why the Left needs to wake the fuck up.  The Left loves to criticise religion when it's Christianity, but Islam is something we need to "celebrate" because it's oh-so "diverse".


    I've always thought that a good part of the Left is inclined to be clear on this issue, but it doesn't have the language to do so, so it feels inhibited from doing so. The cat has got its tongue.

    By that I mean, it has forgotten how to engage in the nitty gritty of debate on issues to do with secularism and a strong religious ideology, and the ideology of religious identity politics. Not only for the familiar reasons to do with simple fear of being seen to criticise Islam, being accused of Islamophobia etc - but because the Left in Britain takes secularism for granted, it has neglected to invigorate its rhetoric and counter-argument.

    Basically, repudiating Islam and Islamism requires not only knowledge of Islamic theology, but it requires a willingness to get down and dirty and scrutinise and repudiate Islam in all its red in tooth and claw assertions.

    The secular settlement is taken for granted. Christianity can be dismissed because it has been reduced to furniture, and has been castrated and made benign in terms of power. Its ability to intefere in the lives of individuals and society has been rendered down. A few scraps of meat to the Archbishop of Canterbury giving speeches at Easter and Christmas which everyone ignores. Those tough battles have been won. Monty Python's The Life of Brian danced over its operating table as it was being de-fanged, laughing at it, and represents pretty much the mainstream British view of Christianity - follow it if you please, but we'll mock, laugh, and render it irrelevant and there is nothing you can do about it.

    And then in 1989, the Rushdie affair happened, and people lost their tongue, and it hasn't really been regained at all. Because repudiating Islam and Islamic identity politics and Islamism involves ferocious intensity and counterargument. Who on the Left is prepared for that ferocity of purpose and repudiation?

    I'm not entirely pessimistic or optimistic. I think events and claims will require it to be confronted by the Left at some point. However, at the moment, some important players in the Left, like the Guardian, still don't get it. Which, given how obvious the need is at present, given all that has happened in the past 10 years, and the reality of how things are unfolding - that they have not awoken to it yet, speaks volumes about the ostrich-ness of these parts of the Left, and how they have abdicated their responsibility to deal with this issue, and refusing to take ownership of it, are actively making the scenario worse.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #38 - October 05, 2011, 04:52 PM

    The more the far-right positions Muslims as the irreconcilable, barbaric "Other", the stronger the most conservative, literalist, tribalist and fundamentalist Muslims become within Muslim communities.

    The more the far-right continues to single out Islam without critiquing itself, its own ideologies, including nationalism, globalized capitalism, current and historical militarism, and judeo-christian triumphalism, the less likely leftists and progressives are to jump on board with the far-right's agenda which is: to once again and forever be the only fundie nutjobs in town.

    Leftists are speaking up but they have to also be careful and frame their critiques within relation to other dogmatic ideologies that enable Islamic fundamentalism. Without looking at those other ideologies, and by just hitting Islam over the head, far-rightists and others actually enable more tribalism and fundamentalism among Muslim communities.

    What the far-right's agenda is is cultural/tribal supremacism, whether it's far-right muzzies or far-right non-muzzies. They are each other's best and most loyal allies.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #39 - October 05, 2011, 05:40 PM

    The north pole.

    Pack warm when you immigrate.  You must hurry.  The muslims are gonna get you if you don't. 


    Silly there are no Muslims in the North pole. Allah's divine laws for the sun rising and setting do not apply there :3

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #40 - October 05, 2011, 06:03 PM



    The problem happens when even reasoned critique of the kind we see here gets dismissed as either being far right or 'enabling' the far right.

    I post on Guardian CiF from time to time. The have a section for the discussion of religious issues. On a few occasions, in passing, Tableegi Jamaat have been mentioned. I am always astonished by how Tableegi Jamaat are given a free pass. They really are an example of a most reactionary, literalist, separatist organisation spreading the influence of a truly insular, bigoted, corrosive kind of Islam in British cities. They are identifiable, they are visible in the literature they peddle and the ideology they preach. They are a perfect example of how the Left could tackle reactionary Islam and its message in a liberal secular society like ours head on.

    But sometimes it seems that there is either no appetite, or no spine for doing so. And yet it is the message of the Tableegi Jamaat that actually says that Muslims are irreconcilable with the kaffar, that Muslims are the 'other' to the non Muslims, that it is the aim and destiny and duty of Muslims to convert society towards Islam and sharia - exactly what the far right say. And yet, they get a free pass.

    Not facing up to this is true negligence.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #41 - October 05, 2011, 06:10 PM

    I've always thought that a good part of the Left is inclined to be clear on this issue, but it doesn't have the language to do so, so it feels inhibited from doing so. The cat has got its tongue.

    By that I mean, it has forgotten how to engage in the nitty gritty of debate on issues to do with secularism and a strong religious ideology, and the ideology of religious identity politics. Not only for the familiar reasons to do with simple fear of being seen to criticise Islam, being accused of Islamophobia etc - but because the Left in Britain takes secularism for granted, it has neglected to invigorate its rhetoric and counter-argument.

    Basically, repudiating Islam and Islamism requires not only knowledge of Islamic theology, but it requires a willingness to get down and dirty and scrutinise and repudiate Islam in all its red in tooth and claw assertions.

    The secular settlement is taken for granted. Christianity can be dismissed because it has been reduced to furniture, and has been castrated and made benign in terms of power. Its ability to intefere in the lives of individuals and society has been rendered down. A few scraps of meat to the Archbishop of Canterbury giving speeches at Easter and Christmas which everyone ignores. Those tough battles have been won. Monty Python's The Life of Brian danced over its operating table as it was being de-fanged, laughing at it, and represents pretty much the mainstream British view of Christianity - follow it if you please, but we'll mock, laugh, and render it irrelevant and there is nothing you can do about it.

    And then in 1989, the Rushdie affair happened, and people lost their tongue, and it hasn't really been regained at all. Because repudiating Islam and Islamic identity politics and Islamism involves ferocious intensity and counterargument. Who on the Left is prepared for that ferocity of purpose and repudiation?

    I'm not entirely pessimistic or optimistic. I think events and claims will require it to be confronted by the Left at some point. However, at the moment, some important players in the Left, like the Guardian, still don't get it. Which, given how obvious the need is at present, given all that has happened in the past 10 years, and the reality of how things are unfolding - that they have not awoken to it yet, speaks volumes about the ostrich-ness of these parts of the Left, and how they have abdicated their responsibility to deal with this issue, and refusing to take ownership of it, are actively making the scenario worse.


    Two other things are at play here:

    1. "The Left" has typically been defenders of religious minorities against discrimination, and sometimes in their zeal to defend Muslims from attacks from the nationalist or religious right, they step over the line and start becoming apologists for Islam itself. I've seen it happen in my own organization, but, fundamentally, it comes from not wanting to see the minority bullied by the majority. If Muslims were close to a majority or plurality in Western countries (which, for all the gloom and doom of the right, and many on here even, is not likely to happen anytime soon as the most any country in Europe outside the Balkans has is 6%), then I think you'd see "The Left" start changing their tune quickly.

    2. The anti-imperialist left sees Muslims as natural allies in a sense at least on foreign policy as they both oppose Western interference in the Global South, and sometimes the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" stuff goes too far and critical and conditional support of Muslims resisting Western imperialism/foreign policy becomes generalized uncritical and unconditional support. For example, the Chavistas vis-a-vis Ahmadenijad or several Western socialist organizations with Hamas and Hizbollah.

    fuck you
  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #42 - October 06, 2011, 12:03 AM


    Thats all true. Its why an attempt needs to be made by the Left to truly take the initiative in the debate so it can be formed and settled by those who aren't going to work on an agenda that segues into collective guilt and asserting direct causation.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: muslim minority countries/cities
     Reply #43 - October 06, 2011, 01:55 AM

    Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Egypt

    ^great places. Move NAOW!

    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »