Beauty

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Beauty
OP - March 30, 2012, 04:55 PM

Can beauty be defined in any of the first two options or both?

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Re: Beauty
Reply #1 - March 30, 2012, 05:30 PM

Beauty is definitely subjective and relative to the time and place, perhaps even the individual. This is evident in the way beauty ideals have changed (plump and pale being the ultimate sexy in 17th century europe in stark contrast of today's tanned and slim idea of perfection). Obesity is seen by most as unsightly in the west, with obese individuals having difficulty in finding mates or being accepted socially. However in Mauritania, the heavier the number on the scale, the more chances a girl has of getting a man. Also, in some villages in Africa, extremely long necks are the shizz.

Beauty is also relative to each individual. Rihanna for example is someone on whom a lot of people disagree: some people find her to be stunningly attractive whilst for others she just ain't doing nothing. But there's some people who fit the general worldwide standard of beauty .. Leonardo Dicaprio and Megan Fox for example are considered beautiful almost everywhere on the globe.

Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Beauty
Reply #2 - March 30, 2012, 05:49 PM

Beauty is haram.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Beauty
Reply #3 - March 30, 2012, 07:34 PM

although i really enjoyed reading Rendezvous's post.. and i would agree with it when it comes to people.. (beauty is in the eye of the beholder)...

i want to vote the objective and universal ... because beauty can be found in everyone and everything.. a rose , for example..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: Beauty
Reply #4 - March 30, 2012, 07:42 PM

Quote from: nessrriinn on March 30, 2012, 07:34 PM
although i really enjoyed reading Rendezvous's post.. and i would agree with it when it comes to people.. (beauty is in the eye of the beholder)...

i want to vote the objective and universal (since the option to vote "both" is gone).. because beauty can be found in everyone and everything.. a rose , for example..

Well i don't vote.. voting is nonsense..........

Sorry that is not beauty.. Physical beauty is beauty .. that is it.. Off course they may have NO BRAINS.. .. Rose example is a bad example

What you call beauty I call it as sympathy, Love , relationship, personal interest .. and so many other words..

well many may think these blondes are beautiful.. but.. but..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DJfemazEbY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQdhMSEqhfg

Oh well.. I disagree with many people .. you are no exception to that rule BEAUTY.. lol.

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Re: Beauty
Reply #5 - March 30, 2012, 07:44 PM

yeez.. i think you're beautiful..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: Beauty
Reply #6 - March 30, 2012, 07:48 PM

Quote from: nessrriinn on March 30, 2012, 07:44 PM
yeez.. i think you're beautiful..

That is not going to help you..., I don't give good credits to student who butter me..

you still fail in my psychology class ...lol.....

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Beauty
Reply #7 - March 30, 2012, 07:50 PM

..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: Beauty
Reply #8 - March 30, 2012, 08:10 PM

But if you find beauty in a rose that's still subjective and relative to you cause I might see the thorns in that rose and think its ugly.

"The more powerful and original a mind, the more it will incline toward the religion of solitude."

"i used to steal my sisters barbies so i could take their clothes off and perv on them" - prince spinoza
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Re: Beauty
Reply #9 - March 30, 2012, 08:14 PM

What about rainbows?

"I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

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Re: Beauty
Reply #10 - March 30, 2012, 08:19 PM

Quote
i want to vote the objective and universal ... because beauty can be found in everyone and everything.. a rose , for example..

rose might of been a bad example... kindness..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: Beauty
Reply #11 - March 30, 2012, 08:26 PM

Fact 1: Babies have been observed to look at pictures of people that most would agree are beautiful longer -> objective.
Fact 2: Not everyone agrees on Rihanna -> subjective.
Conclusion: beauty is both. Deal with it.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Beauty
Reply #12 - March 30, 2012, 08:31 PM

Consider this: Would beauty exist in a universe where there was no one to see it?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Beauty
Reply #13 - March 30, 2012, 08:35 PM

yes it would.. just like the falling tree would still make a sound if noone was there to hear it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: Beauty
Reply #14 - March 30, 2012, 08:35 PM

@harakaat
LOL no u consider it! btw when I insist that beauty has an objective quality I mean it's recognized by all people and not by planets and by trees.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Beauty
Reply #15 - March 30, 2012, 08:43 PM

Rainbows: some might romanticize them and see them as pretty and 'special', others might barely acknowledge them and not find them at all pleasing. They're just 'there'.

Kindness: like love/attachment, whilst I or you might see them as 'beautiful' and expressive others could see them as acts of weakness and vulnerability.

@ALM: hmm, interesting ..

@harakaat: Yes and no. No matter how beautiful something is to one person another will find flaw in it. E.g beaches in hawaii are beautiful but to someone who hates the gritty feeling of sand or to a patient suffering from skin cancer that is their idea of a personal hell. So in reality beauty is everywhere, even in a dumpster or a gorilla, its just not everyone who can see it.

Soz for the mini gospel I just wrote there lol.

"The more powerful and original a mind, the more it will incline toward the religion of solitude."

"i used to steal my sisters barbies so i could take their clothes off and perv on them" - prince spinoza
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Re: Beauty
Reply #16 - March 30, 2012, 08:52 PM

No need to apologize, i think you have made some valid points there.

"I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

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Re: Beauty
Reply #17 - March 30, 2012, 09:12 PM

Quote from: nessrriinn on March 30, 2012, 08:35 PM
yes it would.. just like the falling tree would still make a sound if noone was there to hear it

*mad rush of hipsters trying to buy the soundtrack*

It may technically make a sound, but I don't think it'll make a noise without anyone to process the sound waves.
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Re: Beauty
Reply #18 - March 30, 2012, 09:22 PM

Damien Hirst is proof that beauty is subjective... every-time I see one of his bling-on-crap pieces I facepalm... and yet it sells for millions...

Speaking of whom, he also sees visual beauty in the 9/11 attacks, I'm sure a fair few people don't.
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Re: Beauty
Reply #19 - March 30, 2012, 09:47 PM

Quote from: nessrriinn on March 30, 2012, 08:35 PM
yes it would.. just like the falling tree would still make a sound if noone was there to hear it

It's not the same thing. Sound, defined as vibration, is something that's there, that exists in the world outside. Beauty is how the human mind reacts to what it sees. If there was no human mind, there would be no beauty. Just shapes.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Beauty
Reply #20 - March 30, 2012, 09:50 PM

Both, or more specifically, the first with overtones from the second, biology tells us a lot about beauty, and we alter things around according to our cultures (pop and tradition), locations, ethnicity etc. However, globalisation is shifting and unifying perceptions.

"Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

What apple stores are like.....

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Re: Beauty
Reply #21 - March 31, 2012, 07:37 AM

Saprout!!! First you plagiarize my idea of duality of beauty with no remorse then you add something original to it. Of course you're completely wrong about globalization (i.e. your original part). If no two people who herded the same cows in one village can agree on which hawt chicka is hawter then how is globalization going to fix that? Bismillah the subjective and objective parts are inherent and can not be removed from beauty.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Beauty
Reply #22 - March 31, 2012, 08:01 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on March 30, 2012, 08:26 PM
Fact 1: Babies have been observed to look at pictures of people that most would agree are beautiful longer -> objective.
Fact 2: Not everyone agrees on Rihanna -> subjective.
Conclusion: beauty is both. Deal with it.

Agreed, when I saw this thread my first thought was about the studies showing babies will look at a symmetrical (which is how a face is judged for beauty sub conciously) face longer than they will an unnatractive one.

I think the idea of beauty is the more universal truth in the end though, since ^^ this is not a hard and fast rule once cultural ideas of beauty change what that baby was looking at when it was too young to be socially conditioned.

Then, it is not what looks right, but rather the fact that people create a standard of beauty for everything that is universal.

What defines that beauty is subjective on the other hand. In the West scarring is ugly, yet some parts of the world they scar themselves and those scars become part of the attraction process. "oh look at that warrior and his spear, what a mighty fine scar on his cheek that he has"

Or like rendevous said, the whole long neck fashion, or the plate in the lip. To us that stuff looks unnatractive (well to me it does) but to them, that is beauty.

Maybe as a baby they had a universal reaction, but life = subjectivity. No universal truth then.

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Re: Beauty
Reply #23 - March 31, 2012, 08:22 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on March 31, 2012, 07:37 AM
Saprout!!! First you plagiarize my idea of duality of beauty with no remorse then you add something original to it. Of course you're completely wrong about globalization (i.e. your original part). If no two people who herded the same cows in one village can agree on which hawt chicka is hawter then how is globalization going to fix that? Bismillah the subjective and objective parts are inherent and can not be removed from beauty.

Somehow I didn't read your post, but sorry for plagirising.

Anyway, globalisation is spreading a standard of western beauty ideals to non-Western places, this has permeated into local cultures which then try to emulate the western beauty ideals as much as possible.

That's what I meant. Not that western beauty ideals are unique, but now we have non-western countries trying to copy even the subtlest detail.

"Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

What apple stores are like.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
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Re: Beauty
Reply #24 - March 31, 2012, 11:02 AM

What BerberElla said.

Socialization has a large part in this too. For example a neo-nazi father would teach his kids that any skin/features other than caucasian was ugly and that blonde hair/blue eyes were the be all and end all when it comes to beauty. A liberal family would instill in their kids the belief that beauty is not subjective to one race/ethnicity and can be found in all shades/features.

An environmentalist would make sure his kids learnt to appreciate the beauty he personally finds in the natural world and would take time to cultivate that ability in them.

Other things like bullying have a subconscious effect on kids' ideas of beauty. A girl bullied for being overweight (even if she had no problem with her heaviness before) would surrender to the notion that beauty lies in a slim physique.

"The more powerful and original a mind, the more it will incline toward the religion of solitude."

"i used to steal my sisters barbies so i could take their clothes off and perv on them" - prince spinoza
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Re: Beauty
Reply #25 - March 31, 2012, 11:04 AM

What BerberElla said: socialization. For example a neo-nazi father would teach his kids that any skin/features other than caucasian was ugly and that blonde hair/blue eyes were the be all and end all when it comes to beauty. A liberal family would instill in their kids the belief that beauty is not subjective to one race/ethnicity and can be found in all shades/features.

An environmentalist would make sure his kids learnt to appreciate the beauty he personally finds in the natural world and would take time to cultivate that ability in them.

Other things like bullying have a subconscious effect on kids' ideas of beauty. A girl bullied for being overweight (even if she had no problem with her heaviness before) would surrender to the notion that beauty lies in a slim physique.

"The more powerful and original a mind, the more it will incline toward the religion of solitude."

"i used to steal my sisters barbies so i could take their clothes off and perv on them" - prince spinoza
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Re: Beauty
Reply #26 - March 31, 2012, 12:32 PM

To even define beauty is a subjective endeavour.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Beauty
Reply #27 - March 31, 2012, 12:37 PM

...until you see the picture of Perri Shakes-Drayton in yesterday's Evening Standard.
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