Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran

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Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
OP - May 31, 2012, 06:02 PM

I have come across a few Tzortzis fans who are incredibly impressed by his nonsense.
His nonsense mainly relies on the fact that a handful of non muslims have expressed opinions that praise the quran.

Critical Muslim opinions would be the easiest way to respond to this pathetic argument. But I'm not sure there is such a thing.

tzortzis make a lot of other claims, but non muslim praise of the quran is the only one that I feel is of any value at all.
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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #1 - May 31, 2012, 06:20 PM

and why would a non muslim think the quran is inimitable, brilliant, and miraculous, and remain a non muslim?
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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #2 - May 31, 2012, 06:31 PM

Quote from: dr_sloth on May 31, 2012, 06:20 PM
and why would a non muslim think the quran is inimitable, brilliant, and miraculous, and remain a non muslim?

You are a Islamophobe or a hater of Islam ! Indeed! you don't need to be a rocket scientist to ask this question,but then if you suspend common sense you can believe anything !

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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #3 - May 31, 2012, 06:33 PM

Yes there is. An example is professor Nasr Abu Zayd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasr_Abu_Zayd). But since you are going to discuss with Tzortzis-fans/salafists. They will probably call him a kuffar/apostate. But he is was a good scholar: http://tinyurl.com/dyge7zh

Another person is Mahmoud Mohammed Taha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Mohammed_Taha). Taha focused on the Meccan surah/chapters to make the Quran more humane and peaceful.

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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #4 - May 31, 2012, 06:35 PM

Quote
Quote from: dr_sloth on May 31, 2012, 06:02 PM
......................

tzortzis make a lot of other claims, but non muslim praise of the quran is the only one that I feel is of any value at all.

Quote from: dr_sloth on May 31, 2012, 06:20 PM
and why would a non muslim think the quran is inimitable, brilliant, and miraculous, and remain a non muslim?

the reason they (non muslim) praise of the quran in public and yet do not convert in to Islam is ..

1) Political, 2) economical, 3) Never read Quran, 4) People are polite and on and on and on..

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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #5 - May 31, 2012, 08:15 PM

I'm pretty sure Michael Sells (teaches at Harvard) loves the Qur'an, but he's not a Muslim....

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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #6 - May 31, 2012, 08:42 PM

Of course there is.

1. There's a lot of interpretation of the Koran. There's plenty of Islamic sects with different rules as well.
2. There are many Muslims who criticize the Koran. The problem is they will probably be called an apostate as they defy the orthodoxy... so who qualifies as a Muslim?
3. Many Muslims are afraid of actually criticizing the Koran and instead prefer to 'interpret' things different.

I don't publicly criticize the Koran at family events. It is just too problematic. But I will say how you can interpret the Koran differently.
It's politics at the end of the day. In reality, I just don't believe it is a holy book from God.

You know, like how Americans have their constitution which is all about freedom and restrictions on government.
But to deny the US constitution or its founding would be too problematic. So progressives and other political groups simply choose to interpret the word 'freedom' differently to include their positive rights... as opposed to publicly saying they don't agree with the US constitution and want it thrown out.

Most Muslims do the same thing with the Koran. The benefit though, is that the Koran is so vague, you can pretty much interpret it in anyway.
You wouldn't believe how differently I interpreted the Koran during my days when I was still a believer, but couldn't bring myself to admit I disagreed with 99.9999% of the the traditional interpretation of Islam.
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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #7 - May 31, 2012, 08:47 PM

Constitutions like America's are man made and subject to correction - the only immutable parts of them are there to ensure that correction and change can be achieved, and they are broad to encapsulate this - freedom of speech, organisation, worship, that all are created equal. The point is, under that umbrella there is no fixity.

The Quran is posited as the literal word of God, unchangeable and perfect and all problems start from there.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #8 - May 31, 2012, 08:48 PM

Quote
The Quran is posited as the literal word of God, and all problems start from there.

Not all self-proclaimed Muslims have that belief. They are rejected by most Muslims as Muslims of course....but yeah.

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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #9 - May 31, 2012, 08:50 PM

That is because they are autonomous free thinkers, which is the part of the human spirit that fixed religions / ideologies try to snuff out.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #10 - May 31, 2012, 08:55 PM

Within fixed religions are branches that explore that aspect of humanity.

And seeking out truth is, in essence, a religious quality.

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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #11 - May 31, 2012, 08:57 PM

Quote from: billy on May 31, 2012, 08:47 PM

Constitutions like America's are man made and subject to correction - the only immutable parts of them are there to ensure that correction and change can be achieved, and they are broad to encapsulate this - freedom of speech, organisation, worship, that all are created equal. The point is, under that umbrella there is no fixity.

The Quran is posited as the literal word of God, unchangeable and perfect and all problems start from there.

technically there are no immutable parts in the Constitution. The Bill of Rights could be changed, it just requires a huge amount of support to do so making it virtually immutable, but we all know the American Community will never agree on an error so it's all good

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #12 - May 31, 2012, 09:04 PM

Quote from: chepea on May 31, 2012, 08:55 PM
Within fixed religions are branches that explore that aspect of humanity.

And seeking out truth is, in essence, a religious quality.

No, seeking truth is a human impulse - to describe it as essentially a religious quality is to try to co-opt it for the benefit of dignifying religion. Along the lines of how many Muslims say 'science is Islam', 'secularism is Islam', etc etc etc, to use an example.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #13 - May 31, 2012, 09:42 PM

What he said. Also, given that many religious people are blatantly seeking or supporting delusions that they think suit them, it's rather laughable to claim that "seeking out truth is, in essence, a religious quality".

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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #14 - May 31, 2012, 10:17 PM

Quote from: billy on May 31, 2012, 09:04 PM
No, seeking truth is a human impulse - to describe it as essentially a religious quality is to try to co-opt it for the benefit of dignifying religion. Along the lines of how many Muslims say 'science is Islam', 'secularism is Islam', etc etc etc, to use an example.

Religions as a whole are a result of people trying to reach that truth. Which is why major religious founders have been said to have meditated, and why meditation-like states are so important in many religions. We (humanity in general) need them because, in some way or the other, we need to find comfort and solace otherwise we'd go through a mental breakdown, and religions provide that. So does other stuff: music, literature, etc etc.

Religion is inherently dignified, because it shows that side of humanity that makes us unique, reaching towards higher truths and aims beyond the sensory, and us trying to find meaning in our lives. But we don't have to agree on that, I don't expect for us to agree anyway.

I've never heard anybody say that secularism is Islam, that's funny.

Quote from: osmanthus on May 31, 2012, 09:42 PM
What he said. Also, given that many religious people are blatantly seeking or supporting delusions that they think suit them, it's rather laughable to claim that "seeking out truth is, in essence, a religious quality".

No it isn't, because it is a religious quality. Not a quality exclusively for someone who follows a religion, but a quality that drives the formation of religions and culture.

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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #15 - May 31, 2012, 10:28 PM

Quote from: chepea on May 31, 2012, 10:17 PM
Religions as a whole are a result of people trying to reach that truth.

Debatable. I think it applies in some instances but not in others. For instance, given the alacrity with which Mohammed produced convenient verses, such that even Aisha commented on how remarkable it was, I think there are fairly good grounds for saying he knew it was all a scam.

I also have my doubts about Joseph Smith. I'm inclined to think his only aims were power and sex.

Quote
We (humanity in general) need them because, in some way or the other, we need to find comfort and solace otherwise we'd go through a mental breakdown, and religions provide that.

No, we don't actually need them. It's just that a lot of people are conditioned to accept them and rely on them.

Quote
Religion is inherently dignified

No, it is not. It is inherently a belief that supernatural entities run the world, and that the behaviour of these entities can be influenced by your own actions.

Quote
No it isn't, because it is a religious quality. Not a quality exclusively for someone who follows a religion, but a quality that drives the formation of religions and culture.

It's not a religious quality at all. It's a quality evidenced by some humans, some of who happen to also be religious.

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Re: Is there such a thing as Muslim criticism of the quran
Reply #16 - June 01, 2012, 12:52 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on May 31, 2012, 10:28 PM
I also have my doubts about Joseph Smith. I'm inclined to think his only aims were power and sex.

How dare you?
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