Taqiyya by any other name

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- redriding
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Taqiyya by any other name
OP - February 05, 2013, 02:17 PM

I know this has been mentioned before... ie ex-Muslims saying they've never heard of this concept. Splitting hairs in my book.

Well, had a dawah experience recently & *conscious* deception is most definitely the twine that binds the package. Dawahgandists *deliberately* [little hamster wheel turning, turning] omit unsavoury elements (even deny them; hurl "islamophobia" at pesky beings who fail to dance to their tune). Cloud the water & you'll bait a few confused souls.

Taqiyya by any other name. Thoughts?
- Ishina
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Reply #1 - February 05, 2013, 02:35 PM

People lie. Shit happens. There is no super-special type of Muslim lie.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- Crunchy Cds
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Reply #2 - February 05, 2013, 02:40 PM

I wonder if it's generally becoming harder doing that since the general public has such an unfavorable view of Islam and people can easily fact check and research themselves. Don't get me wrong people will always convert, I'm just wondering if it's much less, than desired because of the internet.

But as Ishina says a lie is a lie. But in this case lying is more like omitting information, and quickly cherry-picking things sweet things scattered here and there to distract from the all the negative things.

***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
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Reply #3 - February 05, 2013, 02:43 PM

Everyone lies, and if you're a religious preacher, you're a professional liar.

Taqiyya is not lying to advance religion as certain bigots like to put it. In fact, if they use that definition, then they are practising taqiya to advance their own BS.

Taqiya is a sad story of minorities having to lie about being from the sects they're from to avoid being killed.

As a ex-Shia, unlike the other Muslims, I knew about taqiyya, and it had nothing to do with advancing my Shiism. It had everything to do with avoiding death, and our sect is labelled as cowardly for having a defense doctrine like that, but fuck it, I choose life. The rule for Shias is that you can only use it when your life is in danger.

I am sensitive to this issue because of me being of Shia background and I hate the people who forced Shias to have to invent taqiyya just to survive amongst murderous supremacists. It's an insult to have the meaning twisted like that and detracts from Islam's bloody history against minorities.

Btw, if taqiyya was the same way as real Islamophobes put it, eg. Spencer and Geller, then how do you know this entire forum isn't set up by people practising taqiyya? It would just be an endless loop, we could be lying about anything.
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- e-raja
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Reply #4 - February 05, 2013, 02:58 PM

There is a story I hear regarding an alcholic Jew who has a conversation with a Muslim. The Jew says the only reason he does not accept Islam is because it forbids alcohol. The Muslim then says the jew can still drink if he converts. The jew converted and instantly the Muslim revealed that if he drinks a drop of alcohol he will be killed and if he leaves Islam he will be killed. I've heard this story in Mosques aswell as dinner table talk. Its meant to portray lying and clear deception as acceptable if it means the Deen goes on or to save souls from greater punishment.

This concept does exist in Sunni Islam though it may not be used under the name of taqiyya.
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Reply #5 - February 05, 2013, 03:24 PM

Quote from: e-raja on February 05, 2013, 02:58 PM
There is a story I hear regarding an alcholic Jew who has a conversation with a Muslim. The Jew says the only reason he does not accept Islam is because it forbids alcohol. The Muslim then says the jew can still drink if he converts. The jew converted and instantly the Muslim revealed that if he drinks a drop of alcohol he will be killed and if he leaves Islam he will be killed. I've heard this story in Mosques aswell as dinner table talk. Its meant to portray lying and clear deception as acceptable if it means the Deen goes on or to save souls from greater punishment.

This concept does exist in Sunni Islam though it may not be used under the name of taqiyya.

That's the problem .... the word taqiyya isnt used for this.

However, the sunnis have the concept of idtirar (إضطرار) which seems to be the same concept as shia taqiyya.

Has anyone heard of that?
- allat
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Reply #6 - February 05, 2013, 03:34 PM

It is really important that criticism of religion be precise, if you want to have any credibility at all. Anyone can throw accusations around, but the fact is that taqiyya is specifically something shias were allowed to do when living amongst sunnis only in order to save their own lives. That is it. All other accusations of taqiyya are baseless and founded on xenophobia. As Ishina said, everyone lies, muslim and non-muslim. If you go around accusing muslims of lying in some unique way, you are only making all your criticism of Islam lose credibility because it shows you don't know what you're actually talking about.

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Reply #7 - February 05, 2013, 03:37 PM

Quote
Has anyone heard of that?

Nope, but we aren't talking about that. If we can just twist definitions and contexts then nothing means anything any more. Let's tart misquoting while we're at it?

Idk, taqiyya is taqqiya, it has a reason, a historical context, and it's sad. It could've been used to expose minority persecution under Islam, but nope, everyone is out for their own agenda <_<'
Quote from: ZooBear
- Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.
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Reply #8 - February 05, 2013, 03:40 PM

Umm my s key is wonky btw so excuse the lack of s's...start* not tart. lol
Quote from: ZooBear
- Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.
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Reply #9 - February 05, 2013, 03:56 PM

To support what allat said, I had never heard of taqiyya as a Sunni. The first time I heard about it was, ironically enough, from the anti-Muslim bigots. Then I learnt that Shias used it in certain occasions to protect themselves.
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Reply #10 - February 05, 2013, 04:03 PM

Quote from: Jila on February 05, 2013, 02:43 PM
Everyone lies, and if you're a religious preacher, you're a professional liar.

Taqiyya is not lying to advance religion as certain bigots like to put it. In fact, if they use that definition, then they are practising taqiya to advance their own BS.

Taqiya is a sad story of minorities having to lie about being from the sects they're from to avoid being killed.

As a ex-Shia, unlike the other Muslims, I knew about taqiyya, and it had nothing to do with advancing my Shiism. It had everything to do with avoiding death, and our sect is labelled as cowardly for having a defense doctrine like that, but fuck it, I choose life. The rule for Shias is that you can only use it when your life is in danger.

I am sensitive to this issue because of me being of Shia background and I hate the people who forced Shias to have to invent taqiyya just to survive amongst murderous supremacists. It's an insult to have the meaning twisted like that and detracts from Islam's bloody history against minorities.

Btw, if taqiyya was the same way as real Islamophobes put it, eg. Spencer and Geller, then how do you know this entire forum isn't set up by people practising taqiyya? It would just be an endless loop, we could be lying about anything.

shhh.... about the forum

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Reply #11 - February 05, 2013, 04:06 PM

*taps nose*
Quote from: ZooBear
- Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.
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