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 Topic: Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.

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  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     OP - April 29, 2014, 02:47 PM
    Since many people conflate the two terms, even though one has shi'ite origins & the other can be found in Sunni hadith....
    Could anyone clarify what conditions allow for permissible deceit within Sunni Islam?

    Thanks.

    E.g: The killing of Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceipt.
     Reply #1 - April 29, 2014, 02:55 PM
    This sort of clarifies upon the conditions, I'm not sure if it is exhaustive though. Feel free to chime in if you can help.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmZbYdACIAAOS_v.jpg
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceipt.
     Reply #2 - April 29, 2014, 02:58 PM
    This fatwa sums up pretty much the most basics of when it's permissible to lie for a sunni Muslim: http://islamqa.info/en/47564

    Now, I'm not talking about strictly theological rulings and opinions of the scholars. But you have the basic principle, that is a very basic idea within shariah, that you chose from the lesser of two evils. Now, in real life implications among Muslims who know about this, they very well may lie in various circumstances that have nothing to do with the guidelines mentioned in the fatwa, because they think lying is better than whatever the consequences might be for telling the truth or being honest.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceipt.
     Reply #3 - April 29, 2014, 03:00 PM
    Qtian, what Al Ghazali speaks about is "vagueness", which means that you are not lying, but you are being so vague or two-faced that other people interpret it as something (that which you want to convey), but your true meaning is secondary or between the lines. So it's basically being dishonest and deceptive. This type of lying isn't classified as "real" lying within the Islamic discourse, and it can be used almost in whatever situation you deem to be right.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceipt.
     Reply #4 - April 29, 2014, 03:03 PM
    Deception is one of the most cunning military tactics. If the armies of Islam were not permitted to deceive their enemies they never would have got very far.

    This is one of the coolest deception tactics, inflatable tanks used during World War II:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwnMAet72Zc
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceipt.
     Reply #5 - April 29, 2014, 03:11 PM
    Yeah, but deception is used in every day life of Muslims because morally there is absolutely nothing wrong with it from an Islamic perspective. For normal people this would be very dishonest and seen as lying.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #6 - April 29, 2014, 06:46 PM
    Thanks Cornflower, but are there not three main conditions where this can be used? I'm still slightly confused.
    From what I can find online (after sifting through all the content created by bigots) this seems to be the "consensus" on deceit:

    1. Reconciliation between two parties.
    2. War situation (which isn't too different from practically every war ever)
    3. Marital relations.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #7 - April 29, 2014, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 29, 2014, 03:11 PM
    Yeah, but deception is used in every day life of Muslims because morally there is absolutely nothing wrong with it from an Islamic perspective. For normal people this would be very dishonest and seen as lying.


    Are we sure that it is a direct result of the criterion in mention or could it just be because they can't intellectually defend their views?
    I don't think that Muslims have a monopoly on lying when it comes to faith.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #8 - April 29, 2014, 06:48 PM
    Quote from: Tonyt on April 29, 2014, 03:03 PM
    Deception is one of the most cunning military tactics. If the armies of Islam were not permitted to deceive their enemies they never would have got very far.

    This is one of the coolest deception tactics, inflatable tanks used during World War II:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwnMAet72Zc


    Fuck yeah
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #9 - April 29, 2014, 06:51 PM

    Are we sure that it is a direct result of the criterion in mention or could it just be because they can't intellectually defend their views?
    The idea of a moral hazard with reference to promulgating your religion is also apparent in certain christian evangelists.

    I don't think that Muslims have a monopoly on lying when it comes to faith.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #10 - April 29, 2014, 07:30 PM
    This is my understanding from what I've learned. Perhaps someone other may correct me if I'm wrong.

    The three conditions (or contexts) where lying is allowed is just that, lying. There is a difference between outright lying, for example (as the scholars give example) saying to your wife "you are the most beautiful woman in the world" even though you really don't think so. When I said "deceitful", I meant saying half-truths, which aren't lies in reality, but the statements are so vague that others understand it as one thing (the apparent meaning) while you understand another meaning (a secondary, or far-fetched meaning, or a meaning you would only understand if you knew what the other person who is saying it knows). This isn't lying, and some would say that it is OK to use this tactic if it is "lesser of two evils". I am in a situation where my ex is using this, even though some would say that his situation is like being in "war" with the kuffar. He is saying things he knows are lies, he is denying things he knows is true, and he does all this in order to protect his child from his kafir murtad ex-wife. I even found a fatwa by the way while searching for a specific hadith which deals with having an apostate wife Smiley http://islamqa.info/en/174409 This man actually thinks that giving money to the mother and her family, the mother will just give away her son Roll Eyes Says a lot about these "saaliheen" Roll Eyes

    And yes, Muslims do absolutely not have monopoly on being deceitful or lying about their religion in order to attract people to Islam. It's just that we're talking about Muslims and Islam now, so that's why we aren't mentioning others Smiley
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #11 - April 29, 2014, 07:37 PM
    I'm in agreement with the majority of that, the issue that I have is the peddling of misinformation regarding taqiyya.
    Do you know of any Islamic works I can read on the issues of permissible deceit & taqiyya?
    Most of the entries online use references which aren't credible & are inherently alarmist.




    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #12 - April 29, 2014, 07:43 PM
    Unfortunately, I have no knowledge of any specific books or works that deals with this. I think that the issue of speaking lies and being deceitful are incorporated in different works on topics where it is relevant (for example books on fiqh or marriage, or warfare, Islamic morality and aadaab and so forth). You could try using Islamic websites like IslamQA and Islamweb to search for it in their fatwa bank. As for telling "half-truths/half-lies" this is something my teachers explained during classes in aqeedah and aadaab, and they used the hadith which has been mentioned in connection to this as support. Anyway, if it ends up in that lying and "half-truths" are absolutely only legit in those three instances (I have a strong memory of reading about "half-truths" in other cases and contexts though), I know a lot of Muslims use the "lesser of two evils" principle allowing themselves being dishonest and deceitful. So it's not just about theological theory, it's also how it is understood by the masses and practiced in real life. I always had a problem with this, because this attitude is one reason why I hear horror stories about men choosing to not tell their mother that she is terminally ill and will die within three months. "She doesn't need to know"...
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #13 - April 29, 2014, 07:46 PM
    Thanks for the help Cornflower, I hope you have a good day  Smiley
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #14 - April 30, 2014, 12:53 AM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 29, 2014, 03:00 PM
    Qtian, what Al Ghazali speaks about is "vagueness", which means that you are not lying, but you are being so vague or two-faced that other people interpret it as something (that which you want to convey), but your true meaning is secondary or between the lines. So it's basically being dishonest and deceptive. This type of lying isn't classified as "real" lying within the Islamic discourse, and it can be used almost in whatever situation you deem to be right.


    Yep, I've done a lot of reading on the issues of equivocation (tawriya) etc...
    I'm thinking of releasing a video or something in the near future which refutes alarmist interpretations of these concepts, there is just so much misinformation online.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #15 - April 30, 2014, 05:24 AM
    It's often real xenophobes and extremist far-right supporters who try to make out that Muslims have thia grand conspiracy using "taqiyah". Roll Eyes
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #16 - April 30, 2014, 06:38 AM
    True. I even see anti-extremist Muslims use the term "taqiyah" as well to "prove" that (non-Shia) Islamists are allowed to lie. Even when I try to rectify them they continue to use the term. As a history nerd I really hate that finmad
    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
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  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #17 - April 30, 2014, 12:05 PM
    The taqiyya claim is almost unfalsifiable (in the context of a conversation)

    Example:

    Me: Hi Nikolaj, your hair looks good today.
    Nikolaj: Fuck you, you're using taqiyya.
    Me: No I'm not, taqiyya is a doctrine of self preservation.
    Nikolaj: How do I know that you aren't exercising taqiyya about your taqiyya?


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #18 - April 30, 2014, 12:06 PM
    Quote from: Nikolaj on April 30, 2014, 06:38 AM
    True. I even see anti-extremist Muslims use the term "taqiyah" as well to "prove" that (non-Shia) Islamists are allowed to lie. Even when I try to rectify them they continue to use the term. As a history nerd I really hate that finmad


    Haha, I find it funny how most Muslims don't even hear the terms "taqiyyah" and "tawriya" during their lifetime but certain bigots are "experts" on the matter.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #19 - April 30, 2014, 12:07 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 30, 2014, 05:24 AM
    It's often real xenophobes and extremist far-right supporters who try to make out that Muslims have thia grand conspiracy using "taqiyah". Roll Eyes


    Nice try Cornflower, you are exercising taqiyyah in your explanation of taqiyyah.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #20 - April 30, 2014, 03:34 PM
    Quote
    Nice try Cornflower, you are exercising taqiyyah in your explanation of taqiyyah.

    ahahahaha  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    "Ours is the age which is proud of machines that think and suspicious of men who try to."
    هذا من فضل جدي
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #21 - April 30, 2014, 03:45 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on April 30, 2014, 12:07 PM
    taqiyyah.


    I can’t see that word written in English (or hear it pronounced by most right wing bigots) without thinking of the traditional white hats Arab/Muslim men wear…
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #22 - April 30, 2014, 03:47 PM


     grin12
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #23 - April 30, 2014, 03:49 PM
    Correct me if I am wrong, but the caps worn are generally white when complemented with a Keffiyeh, right?
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #24 - April 30, 2014, 04:00 PM
    That one is for festivities only Grin
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #25 - April 30, 2014, 04:01 PM
    It looks pretty.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #26 - April 30, 2014, 04:03 PM
    Right, in the gulf at least, they are worn under the white ghutrah or red and white shmagh headpieces.
  • Taqiyya vs permissible deceit.
     Reply #27 - May 03, 2014, 06:09 PM
    Quote from: Tonyt on April 29, 2014, 03:03 PM
    Deception is one of the most cunning military tactics. If the armies of Islam were not permitted to deceive their enemies they never would have got very far.

    This is one of the coolest deception tactics, inflatable tanks used during World War II:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwnMAet72Zc

     Cheesy Love it.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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