Crisis of faith?

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- YinYang
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Crisis of faith?
OP - June 07, 2014, 09:54 AM

Hi everyone
I have been lurking on this forum for a very long time. Firstly I am not an ex-Muslim.I don’t think I would ever like to associate myself with that label. Just writing on this forum is giving me the chills and making my hands shake.

It difficult for me to say this but I questioned my religion ever since I can remember. I was never comfortable with some stories told about the Prophet. I have a hazy memory of asking my parents about some of his actions that I found unpleasant; when I was really young. They managed to placate me but I knew from the beginning that I had issues with Islam especially with the Prophet and its treatment of women.

I have lived in a Muslim country for most of my life and one thing in particular made me feel disgusted with the religion like never before. This happened when the parliament in our country was trying to draft a bill against domestic violence. The Islamist parties created uproar. According to them there was no such thing in Islam as domestic violence and denying husbands from exercising their natural right to beat their wife was anti-Islamic. I found the entire idea very absurd. Yes Islam might not be the most progressive religion when it comes to women rights; but there was no way it could allow wife beating. So trapped in my quixotic delusions about Islam I searched this on the internet. And lo behold! There it was, the glorious (notorious) 4:34. I can’t describe the feelings I went through after reading that verse. I don’t think I have ever felt so appalled and broken at the same time in my life. DV is a huge issue in my country and the religion, the God who women turned to after getting their spirit crushed by their husbands; wasn’t going to help them. Why? Because according to that religion it’s perfectly acceptable.

Then there is the issue of Prophet’ marriages. I think everyone even Muslims feel slightly iffy about the whole Aisha affair. But what about some of his lesser known wives like Sauda and Saffiyah? I have seen people on this forum discuss Saffiyah but I think it was Sauda’s story that made me feel real depressed. She was the older wife of the Prophet and feared that he would divorce her so she signed away some of her rights to stay married. I have seen some Muslim Imams state that this is Islam’s answer to 4:34 for women. And how dare the Kuffar say Islam is sexist. If husbands are allowed to beat their wives for disobedience; wives also have a trick up their sleeves to stop husbands from misbehaving, they can just sign of some of their rights and stop their mistreatment. Three cheers for equality. I can’t believe people just overlook this.

Then the slavery issue is also widely publicized. I had a discussion with a Muslim about this. His parting words were well Slavery doesn’t happen anymore so why are you so bothered about it? Huh! If we were living under an Islamic state slavery would still be happening! Islam never stopped it or declared it haram. I have seen Fatwa’s on Islam QA which state that slavery is okay if the slaves are non-Muslims. For many Muslims this might sound reasonable but to me it’s again vomit-inducing. I can’t understand the whole argument about how it was done during that time so Islam couldn’t outlaw it. Islam could outlaw the centuries old Arab pagan religion; it could outlaw Alcohol and some fundamental aspects of Arab life and garner followers, but then stopped short at slavery?

Sorry for my rambling, I could go on and on. It’s just that Islam and my belief in Allah got me through some very hard times in my life. I can’t go cold turkey on that. Its such a huge part of my life. OTOH I can’t agree with some of its very mainstream ideas and teachings. According to some I am already an apostate. I have tried to soften them up, tried to find apologist excuses and justifications but I end up back at square one which is labeled Hypocrite. I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I want to take pride in and beam with joy at every single teaching of Islam. But I just can’t. Every time I try and research it with an open mind I end up disappointed and shaken.

I feel It’s better to be a cultural Muslim with your vision limited to going to the Mosque, celebrating Eid, not eating pork or drinking Alcohol than it is to be a full-fledged practicing one, dead set on following every single teaching without question. And It kills me to write this. I don’t have issues with Allah unlike some people on this forum. Infact it is Allah who keeps me in Islam. Like I said he got me through some hard times. Maybe I love him or maybe I am scared of him? IDK. Its Islam’s social system that I have issues with.

To sum it all up I am having a faith crisis. What if Islam is true? What if I go to hell for my hypocrisy? I also cannot risk hurting my parents because I love them so much. But I cannot bring myself to accept some of its teachings. Has anyone gone through something similar?
- Cornflower
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Reply #1 - June 07, 2014, 10:27 AM

Hello and welcome to the forum.

It seems as your relationship with allah is the same as mine right before I left Islam. I somehow managed to seperate Islam, Mo and the Quran from allah. Problem is, allah is the source so it really makes no sense belief in a higher being can be helpful for some, I'm happier without it.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- BerberElla
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Reply #2 - June 07, 2014, 11:01 AM

When I first really began to understand just how awful Islam was, child marriage, no rights for women, domestic violence, slavery...well it was then that my faith in Islam crashed. Its not that as a child I didn't struggle with some of the tenets of Islam, its more that the true realisation that at its core Islam was cruel, was when I experienced in marriage everything I had dreaded about Islam.

Allah itself is easily (for me) removed from the Islamic equation.

If such a religion is associated with Allah, but I still desire to believe in a god, then the god I believe in is not within Islam. Is not described by Islam. The sort of god I hankered for, and believed in that kept me within Islam actually didn't dwell within it.

Not that I found that god in any other religions. I found eventually seeing gods that did not match my beliefs in any religion, made me stop believing or needing to believe in a god anymore.

Is the sort of god who gives you comfort, ok with the sort of things that you are uncomfortable with in Islam? I doubt it, or you would find letting go of allah easier.

In that case though, is it really allah who you love? or is it not just your own personal representation of god that you have come to love?

And if its personally crafted by you, then god is man made, no?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
- Quod Sum Eris
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Reply #3 - June 07, 2014, 12:41 PM

Assalamu alaikum sister. Here's your customary welcome parrot.

A lot of people here understand what you're going through. Belief is a very powerful thing, and often a very empowering thing. And while there are a number of things I find horrendous islamically, I also see virtues in the religion. It has good and bad.

Let's say you accept that islam isn't true. That doesn't change your experience of god getting you through some hard times. I don't actually believe in any god myself, but to be fair, islam being false doesn't mean there is no god, just that if there is a god or gods, it's not allah.

Whether you end up an ex-muslim, or come to an understanding about islam and can continue being a muslim, it's fine either way. Take your time. Read the forum. Ask questions if you wish. There's nothing wrong with leaving islam behind, and there's nothing wrong with believing in islam. Don't let anyone pressure you towards either path. Find your own way.

Welcome to CEMB.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- lua
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Reply #4 - June 07, 2014, 04:23 PM

What Quod said. Learn everything you can, take your time, do what is right for you. It's really admirable that, despite how nervous you are, you came here to talk to us. When I was having doubts about my faith, I knew about this place, but definitely was not about to come in and chat. But I really wish I had sooner. This is a great place to objectively discuss Islam and its merits or problems, and find support and reassurance that you're not alone.

Regardless of what you decide, welcome, and I hope to see you around.
- lua
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Reply #5 - June 07, 2014, 04:32 PM

P.S.

It sounds like you're kind of approaching the path, if you're not there already, where you're only really going to put total faith in the Quran over the rulings/culture of Islam as it is practiced today, or even the hadith/tafsiirs.

Most people in this forum, as far as I can tell, are ex-Sunnis, but I am one of the forum's frustrating ex-Quranists. I definitely had a huge issue with all of the problems you are describing, and I avoided them for a really long time by taking a Quran-alone approach. I am sad to say that, for me, it didn't really solve anything, but it kept me sufficiently distanced from the downsides of the theology for a long time...But I can definitely relate to your frustration and your search for answers and trying to find some safe ground. I know how you feel.

The first time I really found myself thinking "What am I doing, supporting this thing," was when I was reading some awful fatwas on sites like Islam QA, and realizing that, no matter how much of Islam I trimmed out, there was always some logical support of these terrible rulings...or, at the very least, no protection against them. The fatwa sites were just the most frustrating things in the world to read.
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Reply #6 - June 07, 2014, 04:49 PM

I dallied with the idea of the quran only at the beginning of my apostasy journey.

But then, no matter what, the quran is the one saying a husband can eventually beat me.

So I couldn't make it right with myself to be a quran only muslim either.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #7 - June 07, 2014, 04:52 PM

Hi YinYang,

I offer you my welcomes You have definitely come to the right place. I have never been a Muslim or even a believer myself, but I find this place extremely enlightening and it is filled to the brim with wonderful and warmhearted people.

Your struggle resonates with a lot of the stories I have read on this site and I urge you to dig into the older posts here. There is a lot of wisdom and familiar tales in there.

"Cultural Muslim", "Liberal Muslim, "Progressive Muslim", "Philosophical Muslim", "Spiritual Muslim", "Quranist Muslim" (which covers a lot of people from hardcore fundamentalists to liberal reformist re-interpreters) - there are a lot of labels available if you feel that full-blown apostasy isn't for you.

However it might not be able to do the job because of your personal integrity, but perhaps it will be enough to satisfy what is needed to keep good family relations?

It really comes down to where you live and what your other surroundings think - how liberal and diverse your local community is.

And most important of all: What your own wishes for your future are.

Cheers and welcome,
Nikolaj

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- lua
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Reply #8 - June 07, 2014, 04:56 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on June 07, 2014, 04:49 PM
I dallied with the idea of the quran only at the beginning of my apostasy journey.

But then, no matter what, the quran is the one saying a husband can eventually beat me.

So I couldn't make it right with myself to be a quran only muslim either.

Yep, that was the thing.

The problems with Islam are all still in the Quran, but it is easier to be an apologist, it's easier to dodge criticisms when you're carrying less baggage. I think I've said it here before, but I bet you anything that any Quranist you talk to is afraid of debating with someone who knows their old Arabic and knows that book cover to cover. A lot of what I did was hiding in ambiguity, but my arguments never ever followed the path of least resistance. The most obvious answer to any moral conflict with the Quran was that the Quran endorsed something reprehensible, and then I had to do a ton of work trying to make the case that it was "misunderstood."

And sometimes when I was making my case and listening to the words that were coming out of my mouth, even if I was "winning" the debate and the other person was surrendering, I found myself thinking "You don't really believe this, do you?" And I never really did.
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Reply #9 - June 07, 2014, 05:06 PM

Welcome Yinyang, i pretty much rejected Islam as soon as i converted, but through marriage i was trapped for a good few long drawn out years, it has however taken me all this time, with the influence of the people on this forum to fully reject it, i'm broken from my spell so to speak, Islam sure does have a way of digging its claws into you, it sometimes feels impossible to let go.. Like Quod rightly advised,, don't allow anyone here or there to make up your mind for you on what path you should follow, there are benefits to be seen in and out of any faith, just follow your heart and do what makes you feel content and free.

(sorry not too good at giving advise, just know how you're feeling as i am an apostate but not an atheist)

x
- Quod Sum Eris
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Reply #10 - June 07, 2014, 05:38 PM

It's good advise suki.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- suki
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Reply #11 - June 07, 2014, 06:57 PM

Thanks.. I'm kinda distracted watching BGT final atm lol he he xoo
- Qtian
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Reply #12 - June 07, 2014, 07:11 PM

My journey went from being a sunni to being a quranist to eventually apostatising.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
- hocuspocus
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Reply #13 - June 07, 2014, 09:26 PM

Quote from: lua on June 07, 2014, 04:32 PM
P.S.

It sounds like you're kind of approaching the path, if you're not there already, where you're only really going to put total faith in the Quran over the rulings/culture of Islam as it is practiced today, or even the hadith/tafsiirs.

Most people in this forum, as far as I can tell, are ex-Sunnis, but I am one of the forum's frustrating ex-Quranists. I definitely had a huge issue with all of the problems you are describing, and I avoided them for a really long time by taking a Quran-alone approach. I am sad to say that, for me, it didn't really solve anything, but it kept me sufficiently distanced from the downsides of the theology for a long time...But I can definitely relate to your frustration and your search for answers and trying to find some safe ground. I know how you feel.

The first time I really found myself thinking "What am I doing, supporting this thing," was when I was reading some awful fatwas on sites like Islam QA, and realizing that, no matter how much of Islam I trimmed out, there was always some logical support of these terrible rulings...or, at the very least, no protection against them. The fatwa sites were just the most frustrating things in the world to read.

One of the things that the OP is bothered by is 4:34.

Anyways, hello yin yang! I commend you for being honest with yourself and choosing to share your doubts with us. I hope you find the right direction in your life. Even though I am personally convinced that Islam is not only horrendous but also untrue, you may not arrive at the same conclusion. And that is completely fine! I just hope you stay honest with yourself. That will be the most important thing you can do right now.
- lua
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Reply #14 - June 07, 2014, 10:21 PM

^ True, but (and I may have been reading her wrong) she seems to still believe in Allah and some form of Islam, and people who begin to get nervous about the immorality of the theology as a whole but who are not yet ready to abandon it sometimes tend to jump into a Quran-alone interpretation at some point. Quranists will very often tell you that 4:34 and similarly dicey ones are simply misunderstood, and then try to contrast it with other parts of the Quran where it says that you're supposed to be respectful and good to other Muslims, and God put mercy between the wife and the husband and what have you, and basically just hide in the ambiguity of the verses whenever possible.

It's not rare in my experience to find Quranists who will tell you that wife-beating is not allowed, nor is cutting of the hands, because of some crazy apologist work--but as soon as you accept the hadith it's 100% game over. There's some very literal hand-cutting and wife-beating in there, not to mention the bashing of women's intellect from the Prophet himself. It's unsurprisingly where a lot of people with conflicts over moral issues wind up at some point. In fact, being appalled by a hadith's support of a totally evil fatwa they read on Islam QA and others had a big hand in that for two Muslim bloggers I used to follow.
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Reply #15 - June 08, 2014, 09:34 AM

Welcome, YinYang!

When reading your intro, it was like hearing myself talk 4 years ago. Actually, it was thinking, not talking, because I didn't have the courage to talk to others about my questions back then. I suppressed my feelings, put them away deep down and here I am, 4 years later. An ex-muslim. I am now perfectly comfortable with that label.

I salute you for having the courage to speak up, to read the things you read on this forum, which must be very difficult for you. It is the first step in coming to terms with yourself. I, too, wanted to hold on to my faith and wanted to believe I would find answers to my questions or my doubts would just disappear over time. I wanted to because it is really hard to let go of something that you have known for the majority of your life.

My advice would be to give yourself some time. It takes patience to find out what you really believe, whether that is in Allah or not. Also, it's not as black and white as you might think. There are multiple possible outcomes to your journey. It's not just practising Muslim or full blown Apostate. Some of us like to identify as cultural Muslims to keep peace with our family or ourselves while at the same time being Agnost or even Atheist. You will find your way in time. Just keep posting, reading, asking questions, thinking etc.

The future is full of thrilling possibilities.
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