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Theme Changer

 Topic: Process of Fertilisation in the Quran

 (Read 3517 times)
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  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     OP - July 19, 2014, 06:03 AM

    So I had a massive argument with my roommate about this (I told him I left Islam and that the fake science in the Quran was one of the reasons). Anyway I couldn't win that argument, mainly cos my skills at arguing are shite, so I'm just wondering what you guys think. The verses that I'm talking about are 86: 6-7. Basically, at face value, the translations say "Man was created from a liquid gushing forth, from between the backbone and ribs". Now I've read a couple of pages about this to seek out arguments in favour of it:

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?169064-Did-the-verses-abt-embryology-come-greek-scientists-does-sperm-come-from-the-ribs
    http://forums.understanding-islam.com/showthread.php?8913-What-is-%93sulb%94-and-%93tara%92ib%94
    http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=2602

    I'll try to summarise here. So, basically, there seem to be several "interpretations". One of them is that the backbone is the man's, and the ribs/breastbone are the woman's. Now... I don't quite know of the fertilised zygote or embryo taking a liquid form, but then I only took Biology up to A Levels, so I could be wrong. Opinions?

    Secondly, if we assume that it's talking about semen only (which apparently goes against the Arabic, as the word "taraib" refers to a female body part, and "sulb" to a man's), then people claim that since the Quran is referring to a liquid, it could be talking about seminal fluid. However, that by itself is not enough to fertilise the egg. The important part of the puzzle comes from the testicles. Secondly, some claim that the blood vessels/nerves supplying the testicles come from between the ribs and back, and that in the embryo/fetus, the testicles are initially in the rib/back region. Now, in my critical and logical way of thinking, that's a major, major, massive stretch. I couldn't win the argument however, so I need to start building my repertoire. Any thoughts on this? I'm also overlooking the obvious explanation that this was taken from the Greeks, since my roommate apparently isn't willing to accept the plagiarism argument since I can't prove it..... :S.
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #1 - July 19, 2014, 06:04 AM

    Oh, and one translation I saw separated the two verses into "He is created from a gushing liquid, and emerges from between the backbone and ribs"....... Liberal translation? I need native Arabic speakers!!
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #2 - July 19, 2014, 06:37 AM

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/110224187/2-101612-Embryology-in-the-Quran-Much-Ado-About-Nothing

    Enjoy.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #3 - July 19, 2014, 06:40 AM

    The section specific to your question is on page 31, although the entire paper pretty much refutes the Quranic "miracle" of Embryology:

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #4 - July 19, 2014, 07:00 AM

    Skimmed it over, seems very promising Cheesy. I shall definitely read in more detail when I wake up in the morning... Thanks!
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #5 - July 19, 2014, 07:06 AM

    As far as I remember, sperm is produced in the testicles, and seminal fluid is secreted by the seminal vesicles.
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #6 - July 19, 2014, 07:22 AM

    Isn't that verse talking about semens origins begin in the blood supply from a part of the spine which is located near the breastbone ? .. Anyways its probably greek again   : )
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #7 - July 19, 2014, 07:24 AM

    .

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #8 - July 19, 2014, 03:23 PM

    I've skimmed it over too and it mentions that if a woman produces discharge first, the child most resembles her, and if a man does first, then the child resembles him. However, I'm sure it's just a matter of who has the most dominant genes. ie. brown eyes are more dominant and are expressed either as BB or Bb. The dominant gene means most of the children will probably have brown eyes, depending on the alleles of the mother. Discharge plays no part.
    Also in reference to the foetus having bones and then being clothed with flesh- both are formed at the same time however at the first stages, the bones aren't hardened yet, they go through ossification to become what we would call bones (as far as I'm concerned. I don't remember much of what I learnt so correct me if I'm wrong). But if you wanted to be very specific, I'm sure they're formed simultaneously.
    Overall, the process of fertilisation in the quran relies on very vague metaphors which is pretty much asking for people to nitpick and for people to make claims of what god actually meant. Like you said, everything everyone claims is a massive stretch.
    I'm not too scientific but I'm just saying what I know and have learnt. Smiley

    "A great fire burns within me, but no one stops to warm themselves at it, and passers-by only see a wisp of smoke."
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #9 - July 19, 2014, 05:45 PM

    Ossification is a process of a material becoming bone, not bone hardening. Prior to ossification the material is cartilage, not bone.
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #10 - July 19, 2014, 06:03 PM

    So I had a massive argument with my roommate about this (I told him I left Islam and that the fake science in the Quran was one of the reasons). .................

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?169064-Did-the-verses-abt-embryology-come-greek-scientists-does-sperm-come-from-the-ribs
    http://forums.understanding-islam.com/showthread.php?8913-What-is-%93sulb%94-and-%93tara%92ib%94
    http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=2602

    I'll try to summarise here. ..

    hello lotofkamino., ask your roommate and those fools at ummah.com to read this article from today's news paper

    Faith and folly by  Irfan Husain., let me add some nuggets from that

    Quote
    `CURIOUS to a fault, I follow scientific developments and discoveries with interest. In particular, recent advances in astrophysics and quantum phenomena fascinate me.

    These inquiries into the birth of the universe and what it is composed of are at the very forefront of research. So when the elusive Higgs Boson was finally nailed down after years at the multi-billion dollar Large Hadron Collider, I was thrilled at the breakthrough.  ...................
    Quote
    Science is moribund in the Muslim world.

    The list of scientific breakthroughs and advances goes on as governments, universities and corporations spend billions in laboratories and research facilities around the world. Eve­r­­y­where, that is, apart from Muslim countries.

    Here, Dubai has built the world’s highest building, and is planning the largest shopping mall. This, it seems, is the sum total of our achievements. Even Muslim states that do not have the excuse of poverty spend their undeserved oil wealth in importing luxury goods, and weapons from the West to suppress their own populations.


    Last year, I was invited to speak at the Amer­i­can University at Sharjah, and was impressed by the campus and facilities. Bright young students asked me interesting ques­tions, and a senior faculty member showed me around. But the entire teaching staff were foreigners.

    It would appear that whatever passes for intellectual inquiry in the Muslim world is limited to determining who is a believer and who is not. The next stage is to determine what should be done with those deemed to be non-Muslims. Mostly, this line of inquiry starts and ends with some form of the death penalty.
    Quote
    .....When Richard Dawkins tweeted that only two Muslims had won the Nobel Prize for science, there was a storm of protest. (Actually, make that one as many Muslims do not accept Professor Abdus Salam as a belie­ver). The truth is that the only meaningful research being carried out by Muslim scientists is outside their countries, mostly in Western universities and laboratories.....

    A fundamental problem is that theoretical research is posited on the premise that there are things out there that we do not know and understand. As one theory is proved through empirical research, another is cast aside as invalid. This is how science progresses.

    ......... our focus is on the theological and political diffe­rences tearing the Muslim world apart. Shias and Sunnis are at each other’s throats across the Middle East. In Pakistan, Deobandis slug it out with Barelvis......................

    Long before the curr­ent bout of blood­le­­tting, science in the Muslim world has been moribund for cent­u­ries. Indeed, our refusal to accept and inte­r­n­alise modern educa­tion based on reason is the cause of our decline. The West, meanwhile, rode the crest of the industrial revolution and went on to conquer much of the world.

    Groups like Boko Haram, as well as the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban, deplore what they call Western education, and regularly kill students and destroy schools. They are too ignorant to understand that nobody owns rea­son and rationality. But they do grasp that in a world where scientific education is availa­ble to all, they would be irrelevant and impotent.
    Quote
    The last 15 years have witnessed a widening of the gulf between the Muslim world and most of the rest of mankind. Increasingly, we are viewed as violent, backward people. This perception — often exaggerated — has led to increasing Islamophobia, particularly in the West.

    ...............

    That is level of science we have in so-called Islamic world.,  ask them to read that article and join this forum. .  and what is this nonsense  "Process of Fertilisation in the Quran"??

    Quote
    039.006
    YUSUFALI: He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and he sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He makes you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness. such is Allah, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Centre)?

    PICKTHAL: He created you from one being, then from that (being) He made its mate; and He hath provided for you of cattle eight kinds. He created you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in a threefold gloom. Such is Allah, your Lord. His is the Sovereignty. There is no Allah save Him. How then are ye turned away?

    SHAKIR: He has created you from a single being, then made its mate of the same (kind), and He has made for you eight of the cattle in pairs. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers-- a creation after a creation-- in triple darkness; that is Allah your Lord, His is the kingdom; there is no god but He; whence are you then turned away?

     075.037
    YUSUFALI: Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
    PICKTHAL: Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth?
    SHAKIR: Was he not a small seed in the seminal elements,

    76.002
    YUSUFALI: Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him (the gifts), of Hearing and Sight.
    PICKTHAL: Lo! We create man from a drop of thickened fluid to test him; so We make him hearing, knowing.
    SHAKIR: Surely We have created man from a small life-germ uniting (itself): We mean to try him, so We have made him hearing, seeing.

    Those verse tells us modern reproductive biology?   Such fools who consider some modern science is there in these religious books  must go back to high school and start fresh..   These silly books are  books of their time.  people had very limited knowledge in sciences.,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #11 - July 26, 2014, 08:53 PM



    I can offer a 2-minute refutation of *any* quran-based scientific claim by any apologist. It goes like this:

    1. No Prophet of Allah ever presented a scientific theory or in any way directly influenced human race's advancement in the field of science. If someone wants to dispute that, they better have evidence from scientific literature!

    2. Quran's alleged scientific miracle were *never* described by the Prophet of islam in any hadith, no matter obscure.

    3. #2 has three possible explanations:
      a. The Prophet of islam was unaware of the miraculous verses
      b. He knew about them but kept their knowledge hidden (to himself?)
      c. The verses aren't really scientific, but appear so based on  stretched-out modern (re)interpretations applied in the aftermath of actual discoveries

    4. If we accept either (a) or (b), we are accusing Allah of *deliberately* keeping humanity in the dark for a millennium or so, until mostly Kutffar started discovering scientific truths such as gravity, germ-theory, information theory etc. Does Allah or his fan-club have any reasonable explanation as to why the human progress was stunted on purpose?

    5. This leaves option (c) as the most plausible explanation (being the simplest one with fewest assumptions!)
  • Process of Fertilisation in the Quran
     Reply #12 - July 26, 2014, 09:24 PM


    I can offer a 2-minute refutation of *any* quran-based scientific claim by any apologist. ..
    ......................

    Hu!  2 minutes??  2 minutes is too long to these fools,    NeoApostate .,  I say few words to these  Quran scientists/ apologists ..whatever..

    "YOU FOOLS GO BACK TO HIGH SCHOOL  AND  READ QURAN  AGAIN" ., may be I may add    "learn a bit of  10th class science along with some commonsense "

    That should be enough..   "Mock the Rascals  and move on" ....  and welcome to CEMB ..
    "

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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