Hello From Kent

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- allat
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Hello From Kent
Reply #30 - August 08, 2014, 08:29 PM

Quote from: RJS1978 on August 08, 2014, 05:44 PM
She claims that she will only be punished for a certain amount of time., then allowed into paradise, bit like a prison term. I can't argue that point as whilst I think I know more about religion than the average person, I would claim relative ignorance of Islam. Is this a concept you are aware of?
I think she is struggling quite a bit which is why she gets very angry. As an example with Israel, her views border on anti-Semitism(although I daren't suggest that) and is totally closed to any blame being apportioned to Hamas. I think she's having real issues in her head but if I suggest conflicting emotions I get shouted down!! :-)

Your friend sounds very confused, and yes, most definitely suffering from a severe case of cognitive dissonance. In my experience, it is often those who are least sure about their own beliefs (and are unable to really self examine why they need to keep them at all) who get most annoyed at anyone pointing out the ridiculousness of those beliefs.

I'd recommend that you avoid bringing up the topic with her, and let her go at her own pace. If anything, if she were my friend, I'd just ask her questions instead of trying to teach her, which will only make her more defensive. Ask her for citations of the things she claims about Islam. Basically, in some friendly ways, ask her to really read Islamic scriptures for herself, and look up what they say about things like hell, eternal torture, the character of Muhammad, etc.

If she is intelligent, she'll figure out for herself as she reads more and more Islamic scriptures, that it's as much hogwash as the Bible and other mythological texts. And that she need not cling to religion to have an identity. She obviously doesn't actually believe in what they say; she only seems to be very misinformed or keeping herself from getting fully versed in what Islamic scriptures actually say. Gently encourage her to learn what Islamic canon is, for herself.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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Reply #31 - August 08, 2014, 08:38 PM

Quote from: RJS1978 on August 08, 2014, 08:21 PM
I am aware of the rock verse, its come up a few times recently when discussing Hamas's true ambitions. Lets be honest, OT god is not a nice chap

When I first read the OT I had no problem saying that god is evil. The god of the quran is very much the god of the old testament, and I have no problem saying that in my eyes allah is an evil god just as I say that in my eyes yahweh is an evil god.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #32 - August 08, 2014, 08:44 PM

allat,
I don't generally bring it up any more than she does... which suggests she wants to discuss. I don't particularly tell her that Islam is ridiculous, I just argue against the existence of any gods. She has quoted verses but tells me her sister is better versed. Its got to the point where I avoid her messages or calls sometimes which I feel guilty about but we cant have a normal conversation without her taking offence to something I say. I honestly think deep down she knows something's not right, I was just hoping for some magic solution...although I guess I knew there wasn't one.

"Take the risk of thinking for yourself much more happiness truth beauty and wisdom will come to you that way" -Christopher Hitchens
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Reply #33 - August 08, 2014, 08:50 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 08, 2014, 08:38 PM
When I first read the OT I had no problem saying that god is evil. The god of the quran is very much the god of the old testament, and I have no problem saying that in my eyes allah is an evil god just as I say that in my eyes yahweh is an evil god.

Its fair to say that most gods seem to be a little psychotic... I quite like the Greek and Roman system where you have a different god for every situation/element. I have just started a two volume book "The Greek Myths" and its a pity Constantine picked Christianity as the three monotheisms may have died off by now... and the roman gods would have died with the roman empire I assume.

"Take the risk of thinking for yourself much more happiness truth beauty and wisdom will come to you that way" -Christopher Hitchens
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Reply #34 - August 08, 2014, 08:55 PM

Quote from: RJS1978 on August 08, 2014, 08:44 PM
allat,
I don't generally bring it up any more than she does... which suggests she wants to discuss. I don't particularly tell her that Islam is ridiculous, I just argue against the existence of any gods. She has quoted verses but tells me her sister is better versed.

Ah. Yeah it sounds like she's one of the types who clings to Islam out of a sense of loyalty to her sister/family, not because she actually knows of or believes much of Islam's myths.

In this case, there's not much to be done. If someone doesn't have the intellectual and moral strength to stand up to their families, even when they can do it practically (when they're not personally dependent on them), then I find it's just much easier to leave them to it. Obviously they don't value their own opinions, or they'd stand up for themselves. If they won't respect themselves, they can't expect others to...

Quote from: RJS1978 on August 08, 2014, 08:44 PM
Its got to the point where I avoid her messages or calls sometimes which I feel guilty about

Oh and you didn't do anything to put her in this situation. You've nothing to feel guilty about. She sounds like she is invested in her blind spot about religious identity politics.

Quote from: RJS1978 on August 08, 2014, 08:44 PM
but we cant have a normal conversation without her taking offence to something I say. I honestly think deep down she knows something's not right, I was just hoping for some magic solution...although I guess I knew there wasn't one.

You can always talk to people here - probably the place where you'll find people who can relate the most to your situation. Most of us here have all dealt with this type of person... it's nice of you to care, but ultimately, it's her choice and there's not much anyone can do if she is unwilling to do anything to resolve her internal conflict. As a friend, best you can do is be there to listen/commiserate if and when she gets around to examining things for real.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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Reply #35 - August 08, 2014, 09:45 PM

Thank, that's good to know.

I joined here really for two reasons, firstly because I am an atheist who loves to discuss religion and secondly because I know relatively little about Islam and I like to learn. This forum has already been a real education. Just reading the threads as I've read the realities and the thoughts without worrying its biased negatively or positively. I love the likes of Hitchens(I'd love his thoughts on the current situations) and harris etc, but when they talk about Islam its not from a personal experience so I rightly question the accuracy.

It just so happens my friend appears to be spiking with her issues of late.

"Take the risk of thinking for yourself much more happiness truth beauty and wisdom will come to you that way" -Christopher Hitchens
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